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[edit] First Topics

Well, lets get this place going. Here is the first few topics that came up during the discussion for forming the group. Just add a topic if you want to discuss it. - teknomunk (talk,E) 13:58, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Romanization Guidelines

The style of romanization I use is very similar to what I have seen at animelyrics.com as that was the first site that I went to for lyrics (nowadays, I look for the Kanji only). But the gist of it is this:

  • For the most part, things are written exactly how they sound.
  • Subject particle 'は' is romanized as 'wa' - This is how it is pronounced and I think that romanizing it as 'ha' would confuse people not very familiar with Japanese.
  • Direction particle 'へ' is romanized as 'e' - For the same reason as 'は'
  • Direct object particle 'を' is romanized as 'wo' - The main reason for this is habit, but this also makes it perfectly clear that this is the direct object particle.

What do you use and why?
- teknomunk (talk,E) 13:58, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

'wa' and 'e' I agree with, but I use 'o' instead of 'wo' for particles following the same trend as 'wa' and 'e'. -Atashi 22:50, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
There has been no dispute over は becoming 'wa', and へ becoming 'e', so I think we can carve that in stone. As for を, I'd say choose depending on the song. Certain singers pronounce the particle as 'wo', while some read it as 'o'. So I'd say choose as it was sung in the song, to prevent confusing the reader. Accuracy is the key. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 02:41, 18 May 2007 (EDT)
I think that we need to decide on one or the other, this will prevent disputes along the lines of "But I heard it as ..." from happening. I have already stated my personal preference, but is there another good reason to use 'o'? Maybe it will just take some time to pound it into my skull. Oh well.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 02:57, 18 May 2007 (EDT)
You stated that "wo" would make it clear that it is a particle, but as per the spacing rules, a particle would appear on its own with spaces on either side so not much confusion there IMHO, even if we use "o". (A regular noun of the same pronunciation is a term meaning "tail"... A rare word to appear in lyrics, isn't it? ) --Altair 10:27, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
For を, even the same singer may pronounce differently in different period of recording. And since it's hard to say which one actually pronounced in the song. I think that it's better to stick to either one. My personal preference is 'wo', though I don't have any convincing reason.--Fujirou 04:26, 18 May 2007 (EDT)
Hmm, I second Fujirou's thoughts. Plus I prefer 'wo' against 'o' as it is implanted deep into my mind: I didn't grow up with 'o' in everyday conversations.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shiikayano (talk) .
Yes, I prefer 'wo' too... At least I think most singers prefer it. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 05:26, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Start New Topics From Here

[edit] Case Of Romanized Lyrics

The latest edit of BoA:メリクリ reminded me of another issue, the case of the romanized text. Generally, I the way I have done it and the way I usually see it on sites that have romanized lyrics is that hiragana and katakana are all lower case and that katakana is all upper case. As an example: "このバイクは赤い" would be romanized as "kono BAIKU wa akai". So what do you think?
- teknomunk (talk,E) 22:42, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

I agree. I've always done this way too. When typing in Jwpce, if you want to write katakana, you have to write it upper case.
And about this, I've had a case with only 1 katakana in a sentence with hiragana :
  • なんかダる―　なんかデる― nanka daru- nanka deru
I didn't write it in upper case. Should I correct this with nanka DAru- nanka DEru- ?
- Kane 23:30, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
Probably, if this becomes the standard, then it will need to be fixed.
By the way, Jwpce is an excellent piece of software, especially the radical lookup feature. Too bad I it doesn't work too well under Linux+Wine.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 23:38, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
Another thing I've noticed in the above song is that in the Romanized section, much of the starting word in the sentence is Capitalized. ...That isn't really the correct formatting style, is it?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shiikayano (talk) .
Update: I've edited it so that it is now un-capitalized. - BryghtShadow 21:24, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Project Page:Romanization Guidelines

I just realised something rather odd and confusing. On the main page, it says:

  • No uppercasing for katakana lyrics (?).

Is that true? I'm hoping that it is not, but... - BryghtShadow 11:00, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

I think it was only a question before we discuss it here. Maybe teknomunk can tell us ?
Kane 11:50, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
I went ahead and removed that sort of information from the project page. That type of information should be put in the help section and not on our group page. Things dealing with the group should be. And it was a question, hence the (?).
- teknomunk (talk,E) 12:02, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
Ok. - BryghtShadow 12:04, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] BoA:メリクリ: コンビニ

Not really sure if this is the right place, but anyway, I checked BoA:メリクリ, and in the Kanji section, it is written as コンビニ but in Romanized section, it is written as COVENI. I know in English it's convenience store which became conveni - convini - CONBINI / CONVINI. So I assume it is supposed to be CONVINI? - BryghtShadow 02:40, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

  • コンビニ (n) (abbr) convenience store, (P)
So it's CONBINI. If it was CONVINI, it would be written コンヴィニ
Kane 10:49, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
*Oops, my bad :P. I was supposed to type CONBINI, not CONVINI. - BryghtShadow 11:28, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
Update: now CONBINI. - BryghtShadow 21:24, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
Update: it's supposed to be KONBINI. :P - BryghtShadow 05:54, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Hysteric Blue:春 ～spring～ and similar : First letter of line caps

This again has to do with the case of the romanized lyrics. As listed in the help section: 

* The first letter in each line of lyrics is capitalized

Depending on how we decide to handle embedded English words in the romanization (talk), capitalizing the first letter of the line could be problematic. So what do you think about this?
- teknomunk (talk,E) 01:48, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

I think romanized lyrics should be the exception to the "First letter caps" standard, but, on second thought, it I might change my mind if a good enough reason pops up. - BryghtShadow 06:00, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Hepburn

If we're going to comply to any specific standard, "Hepburn romanization" (the most common type of romanization, also what Wikipedia uses) says to use "e", "wa" and "o" for へ は を. While the de facto usage may sometimes use "wo", that only comes from how we type in Japanese characters into a computer and is not appropriate for romanization. --Altair 10:12, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

I think that, for me at least and probably others, almost every romanized Japanese lyric they have ever encountered has used "wo" as the romanization for "を". So that is what I adopted for my own use. I myself know that it is just habit that I use that romanization. But that is what the purpose of this thread is, to determine the standard we want to use for this site. Altiar has brought up some good points, how the spacing rules make it clear that it is a particle and such.
Personally I don't want to use Hepburn romanization as the long vowels use macrons; I prefer to romanize long vowels the same way they are represented with Japanese kana, for example いい is 'ii'. This is another thing that is used in most romanized Japanese lyrics (at least the ones I have encountered), the de facto standard if you will. It closely resembles Wāpuro rōmaji.
As a side note, Altiar, how do you type the characters with macrons?
- teknomunk (talk,E) 10:47, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
Good point. I feel it somewhat tedious to type macrons too. (As for how I type them: Are you familiar with how Japanese input softwares work? I've registered in the user dictionary the inputs "あー" "いー" etc. to output as "ā", "ī", etc. when I Kanji-convert them.) So... Maybe it's better to use double vowels or wāpuro for long vowels.
And from what I see, does romanized lyrics have their own culture? I'm not familiar with romanization intended for internatioal audience interested in Japanese lyrics—what I'm familiar are only the rōmaji I see beneath street signs and publications for Japanese-learning foreigners (virtually, the Hepburn). It seems that most of the users here are familiar with the former custom, and while I'm OK with that, it sometimes looks slightly weird to a native Japanese reader. (づ=dzu is a good example.) Well, yeah, a native Japanese reader would just look at the kanji though. --Altair 13:33, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
There is a culture, sort of. As far as I know, most people that do romanization of Japanese lyrics are not fluent in Japanese, but rather speak English as their first language. As they (myself included) are still learning Japanese, the romanization reflects this. We want to get as close to the original Japanese as possible (the kana) and still have it be understandable by others that are not fluent. Hepburn probably is an excellent romanization method for short phrases and names and such, but for a longer piece like music lyrics, I feel that it is a little awkward.
The place I started learning[1] doesn't have any standards for romanization that I can tell. The reason that this thread about romanization is going on is that romanization of Japanese lyrics will take place here, so we need a standard to prevent or stop edit wars. It is not really that important what the standard is, just that there is a standard. People will of course have different ideas as to what is best, I have mine, you have yours, but if we can get most of the people on the same page, the amount of work that will have to be done will be less.
As a side note, I think where づ=dzu comes from is the fact that as つ=tsu, using the voiced forms of both constants,　た=ta, だ=da and す=su, ず=zu, you get づ=dzu. At least that is how I understand it and how to explain how づ makes a 'zu' sound instead of a 'du' sound. So there is logic to this sort of thing. At least I think so...
- teknomunk (talk,E) 13:53, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
Hm, I see. Sticking to the "culture" would be one option, and yeah, often de facto might be better than de jure.
For づ, the thing is, it was pronounced "dzu" until circa 16th century. ず was zu. ぢ was dzi. じ was zi. (That's why the 17 th century rōmaji systems by the Portugese missionary use "dzu" etc.) Over time they lost distinction and became zu / ji with no difference when pronounced. Modern usage permits interchangability of ず/づ, ぢ/じ to some level. (せかいじゅう=せかいぢゅう worldwide, いなずま=いなづま lightning [2](ja) ) The distinctions in the writing system are remains of the archaic pronunciation. Similar to the reason why the particles have different pronunciations. は used to be pronounced "ha" even when it was a particle. That's why I see more internal consistency to base the rōmaji on pronunciation and not the writing system, if we were to use "wa" for は and "e" for へ.
Uh, I'm not trying to be a Hepburn maniac or anything of the sort, so take my opinion as, well, only an opinion. If you aren't convinced, that's perfectly fine with me. And I'd like to hear from other people too. --Altair 21:51, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
I wonder if this is also the reason why the Japanese characters for yi, ye, wi, wu, we is hardly used in daily conversations and script, and Godzilla is written as ゴジラ(gojira)? - BryghtShadow 00:46, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
Yeah, the characters ゑ (we) and ゐ (wi) changed their sounds to become identical with え(e) and い(i) by the 13th century, and disappeared entirely in modern usage. Who knows, maybe ぢ and づ would go next. As for Godzilla, the rōmaji gojira existed first, and was translated into English as Godzilla (which is way cooler, no?) . Not much relation here. --Altair 08:23, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Japanese Readings for English Words

Not sure if it's the right place to post it but I have a question:

  • TV の明かり : TV is actually said テレビ.

For someone who is not familiar with Japanese, it's not easy to guess. Can I use the {{ruby}} for this ?

  • TV(TEREBI)

Kane 16:08, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

I don't see any real problems with it. I don't know if your browser supports it, but the ruby template does more than just add a reading like this: TV (テレビ), it adds html tags that are rendered by some browsers as furigana (I think that IE does this by default, and Firefox has an extension that adds this capability). But simply put, the {{ruby}} template is for adding a reading to a word, to me it doesn't matter what language it is. If I remember correctly some anime openings, the ones that that have kanji at the bottom of the screen, have katakata readings for English words using furigana. If it is in the kanji section of the lyrics, the reading should be テレビ, in katakana.
If you can, when you start a new sub-topic like this, put it under a heading with === Sub-Topic === so that it is easier to reply.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 16:22, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
A little off-topic, but which extension for firefox ? Nevermind, found it after a google search.
I thought the ruby template was only for putting word on parenthesis ^^'.
And for my example, I think I should use the ruby template in the kanji section, and write TEREBI in the romanization.
- Kane 16:37, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
This is here just in case anyone else is interested in this extension
It is called "XHTML Ruby Support" and you can get it through the "Get Extensions" site. It makes {{ruby|TV|TEREBI}} look something like this:
TEREBI
TV
But when support for this type of rendering is not present, it falls back to the parenthesis format that you see.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 16:42, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
Just installed. Nice. - Kane 16:44, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
The extension was one of the reasons I made the template in the first place.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 16:46, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Spacing during Romanizing: {{RequestGuide|Romanization|Japanese}}

We need a guideline on this issue. For example when we Romanize ' 私はとても困っていますけど、無理かも ' what is the Romanized version of that, or any other 文書? In between which Kana/Verb+Particle do the spaces go to?

Also Japanese spacing is worth 2 English spaces. However, 2 English spacings don't show up as 2 except as a normal single spacing. What needs to be done here?

We definitely need a set-in-stone guideline/article on these as it always hinders my Romanizing procedures, and I believe it will help heaps for other people as well.

Anyway, here's what I know so far (may be incomplete):

  1. Verb/Noun + Particle + Verb/Noun:
    • 私は私 (I am I) becomes watashi wa watashi
    • 私の世界です (my world) becomes watashi no sekai desu
    • 消えても (even if sth/sb disappears) becomes kiete mo kietemo
  2. な (na):
    • 色々な (various) becomes iroiro na
    • みんな (everyone)　becomes min'na minna
  3. に (ni):
    • 国 (country) becomes kuni
    • 私に (to me) becomes watashi ni

The list will go on for a while and it needs to be in an article. I can't think of any more at the moment. I need sleep. - BryghtShadow 12:16, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

Well, for みんな I've always written this to minna and the dictionary I use does the same : minna /everyone/everybody/ - Kane 14:37, 20 May 2007 (EDT)
I agree. You would use an apostrophe after an 'n' would be when ん is followed by んや (n'ya), んゆ (n'yu), or んよ (n'yo) as these can be confused with にゃ (nya), にゅ (nyu), にょ (nyo) This is when it is ambiguous whether ん or に is being referred to.
As to the original post, here is what I think:
  1. particles should be treated as a single word
    • particles include the な in -な form adjectives. so 小さな感じ would be romanized as chiisa na kanji
  2. series of verbs, regardless of length, should be a single word and not split apart at the kanji borders. This is words like 走り続けたい hashiritsudzuketai. This should not be hashiri tsudzuketai
    • the exception is when a verb in -て form is followed by another verb
    • ーても is a verb ending, not ーて form verb + も (particle to include another subject), and should be a single continuous word. Therefore 消えても is kietemo (even if [I] disappear).
  3. contractions of words should have apostrphe's where the missing sounds are
    • 消えてく kiete'ku a contractoion of 消えてくる kiete kuru
    • Common contractions:
      • 消えてる kiete'ru (る = ある or いる)
      • 消えてく kiete'ku (く = 来る行く)
      • 消えたんだ kieta n'da (んだ = のだ)
Following these rules, 私はとても困っていますけど、無理かも would be romanized as watashi wa totemo komatte imasu kedo, muda kamo.
Well, this is what I generally use for romanizing songs.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 22:53, 20 May 2007 (EDT)
I'll have some hard time using "-mo" in the same word, I always make a spacing, and never write the apostrophe for contractions ^^'
And for "消えてく kiete'ku" I'd always thought it was a contraction for 消えて行く kieteyuku.

3 more rules that I think of :

  • つづく : How would you write it ? tzudzuku or tsuduku ?

I sometimes see this written tsuduku (which is the way to "create" it) but I always use tsudzuku

  • でしょう : deshou or desyo ?

Some recommends to use syo instead of sho (the same goes for sha, shu). But I use sho.

  • ふたり : futari or hutari ? My preference goes to futari.

Kane 10:18, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

In reply to Kane, here's what I think:
And for "消えてく ''kiete'ku''" I'd always thought it was a contraction for 消えて行く ''kieteyuku''.
I believe that you are on the right track. I believe that "消えてく kiete'ku" is a coloquial contraction of "消えて行く kieteyuku".
Also...:
  • つづく : tsudzuku
  • でしょう : deshou
  • ふたり : futari
And, last but not least, thank you Teknomunk :). - BryghtShadow 11:17, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
"消えて行く" yes you are correct, I goofed up that one.
The romanizations for long vowels, づ, and ふ that are listed above are the ones I use myself.
づ in normal speech is usually pronounced the same as 'ず', but dictionaries, IME's and such make the distinction between the two. So to get to 続く I would have to type in つづく (when of course my IME is functioning properly, it's been temperamental after upgrading my OS).
ふ is part of the group はひふへほ, but I have always heard it pronounced as 'fu'. There is a similar instance with し and つ, if it followed the pattern of the groups they are in, they would be pronounced 'si' and 'tu' respectively. I know that some romanization methods do this, but I prefer the way they are pronounced, 'shi' and 'tsu', for how they should be romanized.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 12:47, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
I've never seen づ rendered as "dzu". Neither the Hepburn nor Kunrei-shiki writes dzu. The correct romanization in both standards is "zu". --Altair 10:12, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
Try typing tsuzuku, you'll have つずく and not つづく.
Of course, the correct way to write it would be tsuduku but to avoid confusion for people who are not used to Japanese, we write it tsudzuku to make a difference between ず and づ.
- Kane 12:32, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

I propose the use of you, youni, noyouni and noyouna for ようだ　ように　のように　　のような. main reason is that these four "units" have very different meanings, so it's not the same "you" in the four cases altogether. Also, because these "units" are used too often. --Cerb 18:33, 19 July 2007 (EDT)

This didn't really work so nevermind. Although it's semantically correct, there appeared some unsolvable problems around grammar. I'm sorry for having suggested this.

[edit] なんの and なんだ

Would なんの and なんだ (as seen here) become nan'no and nan'da, or (similar to 消えたんだ kieta n'da) na n'no and na n'da, or does it become something else? Because nan'no is contraction of 何の(なにの) nani no. - BryghtShadow 13:14, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

I wouldn't add apostrophes in this instance, as なんだ　is the word 何だ, it could be though of as a different reading of the kanji 何. But this is due to habit rather than a real good reason.
I noticed something looking at that page. But I've got to go now, so I'll talk about it later.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 13:21, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
I agree. 何 has 2 ways of reading, depending on the reading way... on-yomi, kun-yomi, nanori (unable to explain the differences but in this case, it's kun-yomi).
So, the 2 kun-yomi readings are "なに―" & "なん―" - Kane 13:29, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
Ok, どうも有り難う (thank you very much).
Found the explanation :
  • The on'yomi (音読み), the Sino-Japanese reading, is a Japanese approximation of the Chinese pronunciation of the character at the time it was introduced.
  • The kun'yomi (訓読み), Japanese reading, or native reading, is a reading based on the pronunciation of a native Japanese word, or yamatokotoba, that closely approximated the meaning of the Chinese character when it was introduced.
  • Nanori (名乗り) are kanji character readings (pronunciations) found only in Japanese names.
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanori http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji
Kane 13:42, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] ～ように

In ヒナを孵(かえ)すように (show here), I wondered about the ～ように part - does it become kaesuyouni, kaesu youni, kaesuyou ni or kaesu you ni. If it becomes kaesu you ni and there is an English "you" (pronoun) located within the same lyrics without Kanji or Translation, would it be mistaken easily by some poeple? which leads me to Distinguishing between English, KATAKANA, hiragana. - BryghtShadow 14:57, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

My preference goes to kaesu you ni. - Kane 15:31, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
I would romanize it as 'kaesu you ni'. 様 [よう] /(adj-na,n-adv,n,suf) (uk) way/manner/kind/sort/appearance/like/such as/so as to/in order to/so that/(P)/ In this instance, 'よう' is a separate word and should have spaces around it in the romanization.
I think we may need to start splitting threads up into smaller groups. We keep running into each other while editing. :P
- teknomunk (talk,E) 15:35, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
Ah, ok, thanks. And I do think we should split threads as well. This one seems quite long even if it's based on the section, so perhaps a section sub-section? That would be nice. - BryghtShadow 05:09, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Distinguishing between English, KATAKANA, hiragana

Unless we use a format of distinguishing English from KATAKANA and hiragana during romanization, I believe some English words can be mistaken. E.g.

  • sake (a drink) and sake (e.g. for sb's sake.)
  • take (bamboo) and take (e.g. to remove sth from a place)

So perhaps we should Capitalized only the first letter of the English word(s) since KATAKANA and hiragana can be distinguished from each other? Or are there any other methods? - BryghtShadow 14:57, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

I don't know of a good way to do this. The ways I can think of to distinguish English text is capitalize the first letter of the English word, italics, bold, or use a different font. Italics I generally use for things like notations (chorus, voice parts, etc.) or for intro text that is spoken. I don't think that bold would look very good because it would draw too much attention to that part of the text. Using a different font would either require modifying the extension responsible for the <lyrics> tags or a lot of extra coding.
So I think that capitalizing the first letter of the English words is the best of the options I could think of.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 15:38, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
It's been a loooong time since my high school Japanese class, but wouldn't meaning be taken care of by the context of the lyric? If not, perhaps a parenthetical notation of the word's english translation in a (smaller) type? Just a thought as I was peeking in. ----Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 00:20, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
The context is not always obvious in the romanized lyrics; Japanese lyrics are notorious for for having random English words stuck in where the translated Japanese word would have been. You find this a lot for anime songs (think DBZ type). But you are right in that the other term would make absolutely no sense. Sake (for Pete's sake) vs. sake (rice wine) and you (pronoun) vs. you (likeness). Anyway, enough of my ranting.
And you are more than welcome to come in here, Kiefer. You're lucky to have a Japanese class in high school, my only choices were Spanish, German and French, oh and Spanish.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 00:40, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
*An appropriate example for 'you' being very easily mistaken is if the lyric was あの日のように会えたら vs. あの日の you に会えたら - (excuse any mistranslation) the former meaning if [we] could meet just like that day; the later meaning if [I] could meet the You of that day. However, they both have the same romanized lyrics - ano hi no you ni ae tara.
The (small) tags look inviting, though. hmmm - BryghtShadow 06:42, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
Well, I'm not very fluent in Japanese, but if you want to render if [I] could meet the You of that day, I think you would use あの日の君に会えたら instead (I think of あの日の君へ by Kotoko). And as we talked about it, we thought of using the first letter in upper case for english words but I don't know if it has become a standard.
By the way, why ae tara instead of aetara ?
- Kane 10:44, 25 May 2007 (EDT)
That example was for 'if' an artist were to write a lyric such as that. 君 is more commonly used compared to You. I'm also going for the idea of upper case for the first letter and so far I believe it's not yet standardized.
(I don't know why I added the space, but yes, that was my error, aetara is the correct one.) - BryghtShadow 10:34, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] いなくなっちゃう

I don't know if I've seen this romanization somewhere else, but how would っち (e.g. いなくなっちゃう) be romanized? Is it 'ccha' or 'tcha' i.e. inakunacchau or inakunatchau? And even if it is, does it need any spacing? (We could add this to guidelines) --- BryghtShadow 04:12, 15 June 2007 (EDT)

I have usually romanized っちゃ as tcha, but ccha may be more appropriate; this is not a common sound in Japanese (at least I don't think so), and I can't think of a reason for one over the other.
- teknomunk (talk,E,日本) 22:40, 15 June 2007 (EDT)
If English format is followed, っち becomes tch e.g. catch, watch. Also いなくなっちゃう is a colloquial form of いなくなってしまう inakunatteshimau, therefore tch I thought would be more closer. But if we follow taking the first consonant after っ and repeating it e.g. double 't' in なってしまう natteshimau, then なっちゃう would become nacchau. Hmm... maybe it might be the preference of the contributor but if majority uses one of them, then perhaps that would become more of a standard? I wonder what other people's thoughts and preferences are on this? --- BryghtShadow 23:00, 15 June 2007 (EDT)
Well, my preference for this is -ccha because of the っ repeating the next first letter
Kane 12:57, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] あぁ & っ at the end

  • あぁ

How would you transcript this ? aa ? Even if it's not a "full" a ? Got it and wrote it aa.

  • っ at the end

It may not be clear like this, an example will help : 許さないっ! (just got it in a song). I transcribed it yurusanai!. For both examples, I don't know if there's a more accurate way to write it. Any ideas ?
Kane 16:37, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

I think how you did it is fine. For あぁ, the two ways I can think of to romanize it are 'aa' and 'ah'. For the いっ, I don't know of any other way to romanize that. I guess if someone comes across a good way to romanize it, we'll use that.
By the way, looking at your last.fm tracks, did you happen to get Kotoko:Short Circuit II (2007)?
- teknomunk (talk,E,日本) 20:33, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
Well, yes, I got it. Only 3 new tracks, but pretty nice album tough :)
- Kane 14:53, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
I agree with teknomunk for あぁ.
Ooh! っ at the end is a tough one. Other than maybe adding an exclamation mark at the end, I don't have any good ideas for it.
--BryghtShadow 01:36, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

After some thinking, for the case っ, I propose the use of '. It would be then "yurusanai'!" It might looks weird but it conveys entirely in my opinion the meaning which っ is meant to convey, that is a sudden cut while speaking. --Cerb 20:28, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

I think that would be best, and as I haven't seen it hardly at all, I don't think that it looking weird is going to be a problem.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 17:49, 31 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Transcribe lyrics or song?

Hello, I'm a newbie from Japan who agree the site's concept. I declare I'm not native speaker of English first. Today, I romanized this page:中島みゆき (Miyuki Nakajima):ヘッドライト･テールライト, and I found a problem. The part ヘッドライト・テールライト is actually pronounced like Headlight, Taillight rather than HEDDORAITO TEERURAITO. I know we should romanize lyrics faithfully, but I don't want those who will see the page sing like the latter. Caught in the dilemma, I finally choiced the former. Should I go like the latter? Tutankhamen 08:47, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Authenticity Guidelines

[edit] Resources Shout Out

These are the main resources I use:

  • Japanese Only Dictionary at goo.ne.jp
  • Babelfish (Automatic Translator), though I think I may be wasting my time using it, it is pretty bad at Japanese
  • Japanese Lyrics Forums Chinese site where I get Kanji from. They have A LOT of songs. I usually use google and add site:bbs.comic.cn to the search to find the lyrics. Requires registrations, but you can use 'cached' to read it without registering.
  • Rikaichan An in-browser, popup Japanese-English dictionary. This makes my life MUCH easier romanizing and translating lyrics. I just turn it on and hover the cursor over a Japanese word, and up pops the dictionary entry for it.

- teknomunk (talk,E) 13:58, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Additional recommendations that I use:

  • Nihongoresources - an online Japanese dictionary, useful also for finding grammar, kanji, names, particles, etc.
  • Excite (Automatic Translator), similar to Babelfish. However, it doesn't always recognise non-kanji vocabs, especially those with multiple meanings.

-- BryghtShadow 06:37, 18 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Peer Reviews

Until we have a better way to do this, put your requests here. - teknomunk (talk,E) 13:58, 17 May 2007 (EDT)


A few pulled from the SOTD nominations queue

   *If you don't know where to start or go, these are the list of requests for songs that require Kanji, Japanese Romanization, and/or Japanese Translations.

[edit] Titles with Ruby

What to do with titles containing ruby (e.g. 中島みゆき (Miyuki Nakajima):みんな去(い)ってしまった (1976) and song titles found within this album)?

  1. Which version becomes the main article:
    • みんな去(い)ってしまった
    • みんな去ってしまった
    • みんな去(い)ってしまった
    • other versions I don't know/can't think of.
      • *If it becomes みんな去(い)ってしまった, how is/can it formatted?*
  2. Which ones become the redirecting pages?
  3. Which version does the link title become?

- BryghtShadow 03:06, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

As the link title isn't really limited in what can be included, I would say use the みんな去(い)ってしまった (1976), assuming that is what is on the CD. As to the page title, I think that going to 中島みゆき (Miyuki Nakajima):みんな去ってしまった (1976) should get to the correct page, but I don't know of a good way to put the furigana into the page title. Unless someone else has an idea, I would say that the current location of the page is good enough.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 13:17, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
Thanks. Quite true, on the CD it was みんな去(い)ってしまった (1976) ;).
Upon testing in previews, having the {{ruby}} as a page title didn't seem to work. Well, it was more like 'the link didn't work when the destination had the {{ruby}} in it'. It became a non-link. So maybe that 'could' be modified in the future, and hopefully someone comes up with something.
- BryghtShadow 05:33, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Romanization of Titles

  • 'Motteke! Sailor Fuku' vs 'Motteke! Seeraa Fuku' - Do song titles need to be English-fied when it is in Katakana? - copied from LyricWiki:Japan
    I think that a redirect should be placed at the English-fied version of the title, but that the actual song should have the page name in kanji. I am not sure how to handle display of the romanized version of the title yet. - teknomunk (talk,E) 22:50, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
    I second the title being in kanji, and then on the page a romanization and translation can be provided to help in searching. I don't think any page should have romanji in the title as there is no universal standard. YukataNinja 14:20, 19 May 2007 (EDT)
    I've created the page of this single here but I don't know if I did it right, because of both artist names and title song in Japanese - Kane 14:45, 20 May 2007 (EDT)
    I think that the artist names should have romanized versions in parenthesis after the names. Other that that, I see no problems.
    - teknomunk (talk,E) 21:34, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
I'll do it but just one question : 平野綾 should I write Hirano Aya or Aya Hirano ? I usually use Hirano Aya but it seems that I should use Aya Hirano to be right with the rest of the site.
- Kane 23:19, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
I would use Aya Hirano, with the family name last. This is good for people who are not familiar with Japanese. For people who are familiar, most understand that the family name is first and adjust accordingly. And for the purist that want the Japanese, it is there. At least that is my story...
- teknomunk (talk,E) 23:28, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
Before you do that, I have a quick question. How would you handle having multiple artist and still provide a romanization for the artist names?
- teknomunk (talk,E) 00:38, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
Well, no other choice than 平野綾 (Aya Hirano)、加藤英美里 (Emiri Katou)、福原香織 (Kaori Fukuhara)、遠藤綾 (Aya Endou). It's long, I know, and that's why I wrote the names in kanji only.
If you have a better way to do it, I'm waiting :)
- Kane 09:18, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
There is always the choice of not doing anything. In that case, the only place that you could put the romanization of the artist names would be in the song header (the part with {{Song}} ). As a side note, don't do things a certain way just because it is what I would do, it may not be the best course of action.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 13:55, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
Thanks for the advice, I'll follow it.
- Kane 15:56, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Translations

  • Literal vs. flow - copied from LyricWiki:Japan
    Not sure exactly what this is, but if I can, I keep the same layout as the kanji version of the song if I can. If this is artistic license vs. literal translation, I would say somewhere in the middle, when it can be done without sounding too silly in English, I prefer literal translations. - teknomunk (talk,E) 22:50, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Translations have to be as close as possible to the original, excepting untranslatables and idioms. Artistic license only should taken when the original takes it as well, and it doesn't risks the fully understanding of the original intentions. --Cerb 18:27, 19 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Songs Have Multiple Artists

Maybe this is a issue for all languages, but since 'もってけ!セーラーふく (Motteke! Seeraa Fuku)' reminds me this, I just write it here. I see the page name of 'Second Flight by KOTOKO&佐藤裕美 (Sato Hiromi)' is 'Kotoko:Second_Flight'. So there is one choice that using the first artist as page name. In the situation of 'もってけ!セーラーふく', it will be '平野綾_(Aya_Hirano):もってけ!セーラーふく'. Any thoughts? --Fujirou 13:02, 18 May 2007 (EDT)

For Kotoko:Second_Flight, I just put something down, but I think what probably should be done is to have it under KOTOKO&佐藤裕美 (Sato Hiromi):Second Flight and then use redirects liberally. And I probably should move everything from Kotoko to KOTOKO, which is the correct way to write the artist's name.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 13:16, 18 May 2007 (EDT)
Another thing... For songs that have been sung by different artists like I pray to stop my cry, there are 3 versions of this song
  • I pray to stop my cry by KOTOKO
  • I pray to stop my cry -Nineball Mix- by MAKO
  • I pray to stop my cry -little sea style- by 川田まみ (Kawada Mami)
  • Note : The KOTOKO version has incorrect title (I pray to stop my tears), is it possible to change it ?
There is also another song that I have in mind that is sung by 3 different artists. Sensitive :
  • Sensitive & Sensitive -Remix- by KOTOKO
  • Sensitive 2001 by 島みやえい子 (Shimamiya Eiko)
  • Sensitive 2001 -Remix- by Shiho
What to do in these cases ? Kane 14:00, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
To fix an incorrect title, use the 'move' button at the top of the page.
As to the original issue, these should each have their own page. If you know which artist originally did the song, a link to that page from the others, (using {{Cover}}) should be put on the other pages. That is the guideline that the overall wiki uses, but I don't know if it is in the help section anywhere.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 15:43, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
Oh, I hadn't noticed the move button. Thanks :) - Kane 15:51, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Translation columns

I think we should look into creating our own translation template that integrates kanji, romanji, and english. I assume most users like the romanji next to the english, but people with japanese experience probably don't use the romanji at all. And then some other people might like to have kanji next to romanji. However I don't know if we can fit three columns on a page? YukataNinja 14:20, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

We at least need a standard format for this. A template may not be the best, but I agree that we should have the translation next to the Japanese text, whether it is romaji or kanji.
Another problem with the side-by-side translation is if you are not using the same screen resolution or a line runs long, the translation doesn't line up properly. I would prefer to not use a software extension, but that may be the only way to handle this.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 14:31, 19 May 2007 (EDT)
Here's one thought. Perhaps we could have two single-row-double-column tables. The first table would be Kanji on the left; English on the right and the second would have Romaji on left; English on right.
  

[edit] Kanji

phone Send "Japan" Ringtone to your Cell Phone phone
これはテストです

phone Send "Japan" Ringtone to your Cell Phone phone

[edit] English Translation

This is a test


  

[edit] Romanized Japanese

kore wa TESUTO desu

[edit] English Translation

This is a test

-- BryghtShadow 08:28, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

We shouldn't have duplications of text, it's a waste of space. Either make it three columns (if able to do so while keeping stanzas intact) or make each section one after the other. I say the order be, Romanized (pronunciation of what's sung), English (so most people can read it), Kanji (so others can read it or use the original text for translation purposes). --Notmyhandle (talk • contribs) 23:33, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

Come to think about it, yes, duplication does take up four-thirds of space. Three columns would be able to fit really short sentences, or sentences/stanzas modified to fit the three columns, but that wouldn't be good. So I think the most likely solution is the later: Romanized, English, Kanji. - BryghtShadow 04:28, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Guidelines

Are there plans to create a formal guidelines to creating pages with Japanese kind of like Help:Formatting_Artists. YukataNinja 14:22, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

I know of no existing plans, but since you brought it up, this would be an excellent idea. it probably should be put into the help section of the site.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 23:41, 19 May 2007 (EDT)
If it will be created, which part under Help section will it go to and what will the title be (the link)? Also, are there any guidlines to creating a guideline? - BryghtShadow 13:48, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
There is already a stub page at Help:Romanization for romanization guidelines.
My thought for where to put the artist/album/song page guidelines would be Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Artists/Japanese and related pages, but we probably should put a question in the LyricWiki_talk:Community Portal about this, as it affects more than just us and could be used as a template for the other languages.
And as to guidelines for guidelines, use proper grammar, spelling, be polite talk in a non-personal voice, just the normal stuff.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 15:59, 21 May 2007 (EDT)
Ok, thank you. I was thinking of creating a base page and/or adding more to the base. But if I do create one, it'll be when I've got a fairly good amount of knowledge, and free time. - BryghtShadow 05:24, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
Update: Community Portal topic regarding the above has been added here. - BryghtShadow 05:41, 22 May 2007 (EDT)
I put together very basic stubs at Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Artists/Japanese and Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Songs/Japanese.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 01:21, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
Cool. For starters I've added a helpful link to 'Template:SongFooter'. I'll see what other things I can add :).
Note: Editing and saving a section didn't seem to work... I wonder why? - BryghtShadow 04:24, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
Which section didn't work? Did it trigger the spam filter? If so, what triggered it, it should say.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 09:54, 31 May 2007 (EDT)
The Template:SongFooter section. I clicked edit, added stuff, then clicked save, but none of my edits showed up. Not even in the page history. And no filter was triggered (what does the spam filter look like...?) :\. When I edited the whole page, my edits did work.
- BryghtShadow 02:07, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
That's strange... When the spamfilter is triggered it tells you what triggered it. And explicitly stays that you triggered the spam filter. But it sounds more like a glitch, cosmic rays, etc.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 09:48, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
It's either a glitch,etc... or my browser: Firefox. Well either one of it, I'll check again to confirm. - BryghtShadow 15:03, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
Yep. The edit does not exist (although it should because I just did a section edit) and spamfilter did not appear. And for the previous one that did show up edits, I had to Edit Page, then manually add the section in summary. I'm guessing it's the former (glitch, etc).
By the way, when's the best time to outdent posts? In other words, after how many indents should it be outdented? - BryghtShadow 15:11, 1 June 2007 (EDT)
Don't know, so I will just do this.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Anyway, that is okay (I guess), a glitch. Usually when Firefox glitches on me, my IME stops working, or it just dies.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 22:56, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Romanization - Artists Names

工藤静香 (Kudou Shizuka) is very commonly known as known as Shizuka Kudo (Wikipedia, Lyricwiki, Official Site) or Shizuka Kudō. Only due to pronounciation, 工藤, くどう became くどお kudoo, which (to prevent English pronounciation confusion of "oo" vs. "uu") became kudō, which (due to keyboard keys lacking all variations) became kudo.
But in my opinion Shizuka Kudo/Shizuka Kudō should be written as Shizuka Kudou (as 藤 is written as ドウ dou). And this will apply to other artist names. What do others think of this?
-- BryghtShadow 22:25, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

I think that if 'Kudo Shizuka' is used by the artist or is common enough to be the 'de facto' standard romanization, then that should be used. In the absence of an existing standard, this site's romanization standards should be used (the ones we are sorting out up ^there). At least that is what I think...
- teknomunk (talk,E,日本) 23:18, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
Well, if and when exact romanization ('Kudou Shizuka') becomes the LW standard, then we'll have to move pages. *Luckily there aren't many 工藤静香 (Shizuka Kudo) pages to move ^_^. - BryghtShadow 23:25, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
Well, given that the artist's site romanizes it as 'Kudo', I think that is what we should use. And I don't think we have discussed this yet, but I think that the given name should go first followed by the family name. So 'Kudou Shizuka' instead of 'Shizuka Kudou', Miyuki Nakajima instead of 'Nakajima Miyuki', etc.
If there were a lot of pages, it still wouldn't matter, I have a neat little tool called 'Batch Move Pages' that moves all pages with the same prefix (i.e. artist) to another prefix (artist). It is an admin-only tool because it is rather intensive and very difficult to undo.
- teknomunk (talk,E,日本) 23:32, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
Woops :P, slipped my mind and I'm used to it. But yes I think it was explained somewhere. Names written: first last.
And regarding the neat little tool, just wondering does it fix every single bit? Like links found in {{Song|Title|Artist}}, and such? or would those extras be fixed manually? On second thought on the possibility of those extras being like 100+ in numbers, I'm now assuming that the tool fixed that as well. But confirmation is always good. - BryghtShadow 23:39, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
I don't think it gets everything, but I am pretty sure that it fixes the parts in the {{Song}}'s. I am not sure that it fixes the song footer; I don't use it very often. I know that it marks pages were collisions would occur so that they can be manually edited. Anyway, I would classify it as 'experimental' quality, good, but still with some bumps. The more it gets used the more we will find and smooth out those bumps.
- teknomunk (talk,E,日本) 23:46, 2 June 2007 (EDT)
Ok, thanks for the info.
-- BryghtShadow 23:50, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] anglicisation of japanese words of foreign origin

hey guys, first time poster here :o. teknomunk informed me of this neat little group. ive been watching for a while :p

but, back to the point, what are your opinions of anglicisation of japanese words of foreign origin? like, in Ali_Project:月蝕グランギニョル, you see ﾀﾅﾄｽ and ｴﾛｽ as some of the first foreign words. what are your views of romanising them? i have seen many words like　ｸﾞﾛﾃｽｸ　romanised on other songs as, simply put, "grotesque", in the romanisation.

my personal view is that just romanise them as they appear in the song. ex if the artist says "sacrifice" says it in english, but the person who transliterated it put "ｻｸﾘﾌｧｲｽ" in the song, put it as "sacrifice". what are your views?

and oh, teknomunk, cheers to you for transliterating almost all of the songs in the ali project section :) --Cubia2011 16:43, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

I am not sure, most of the songs I work with haven't had foreign words in them. But if I were to say, I would say that if the word is written in Latin characters in the kanji, then they should be written exactly the same in the romanization and if they were written in katakana, then to write it as kana. The translation would have the correct 'Eros' word in it. But this is just my opinion and not a very well thought out one at that, so take it with a grain of salt.
And in regards to Ali Project, your welcome.
- teknomunk (talk,E,日本) 10:04, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] The "long vowel marker"

I apologise beforehand if this subject was mentioned before. Either way, please do enlighten me on what to do.

An example of the situation I'm concerned with would be the katakana phrase スタート, which should be pronounced as SUTAATO (notice the double A in the centre because of the vowel prolonging mark, that is, the dash, which is the thrid character in the kana). However, how should we romanise the vowel prolonging mark? The two common methods of romanising this would be SUTAATO or SUTA-TO. There seems to be no standard for this, but I personally prefer the former (SUTAATO) because it's a more accurate to readers who aren't familiar with the Japanese language. Any opinions? Or has there already been a rule set? — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 01:55, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

Personally and commonly, I also prefer double vowels vs. a vowel and a dash. The reasons that I can think of at the moment are:
  1. As you stated "because it's a more accurate to readers who aren't familiar with the Japanese language".
  2. A dash would be used in such cases:
    • FU-JI-TSU (which, if used as the long vowel marker, would read as FUUJIITSU)
    • (sometimes) to close the spacing between syllables, instead of bullets ・ since bullets are not easily type-able with usual keyboards, or read by some computers.
      E.g. sometimes あ･り･が･と･う is written as A-Ri-Ga-To-U instead of A Ri Ga To U.
However, I'm not sure if there are any rules set yet. --BryghtShadow 04:03, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
I would agree that the vowels should be doubled instead of using a dash, it makes it easier to read and has other uses.
- teknomunk (talk,E,日本) 10:06, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] userbox

I made a Template:User Japan for shits-n-giggles, maybe it will help spread the word. Also, maybe we should keep a list of members at LyricWiki:Japan/Members? YukataNinja 15:06, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

Good idea! So good that I'm going for both and giving them 5/5 ^^.
Member's list should then be in order and/or category of name and/or status (admin, founder, etc), no? Maybe not the status, on second thoughts...
--BryghtShadow 12:02, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Group Organization

I think we should use the front page of this group to try and organize the members some more. First I suggest we have a projects subsection that contains things like

  • Help:Romanization - Currently Stub. Update to match results of discussions on talk page.
  • Listing things to be peer reviewed. Use the song's talk page to discuss (even if you think it's 100% okay, then we can remove it from this list.
  • Artists pages that can be targeted as a group. These can be discussed here who we should focus on, but it should be an artist that is missing many songs that should be popular enough to find (like M-flo?). Maybe something like 1 artist a week, if this works out.

I'm going to add this skeleton to the front page.

YukataNinja 10:25, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Corichan's Lyrics

There is a J-pop fansite [3] that has many romanji and english translations. She requires that all of her original material require hot links back to her site. I have found a few instance of some of her material being used with and without this stipulation and have removed all of them because we have a policy of not linking to fansites (am I correct on this?). But I wanted to bring the discussion up here if we should be using her material with the hot linking, or only if she would willing submit it without links?
YukataNinja 12:16, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

I agree that we should not take other people's romanizations and translations without permission and that only original romanizations and translations should be allowed. However, I think it may be worthwhile to contact Corichan to see if she would like to submit here as well. At worst we open a dialog and at best we get another active member.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 19:22, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Songs with Japanese in Title

There are many songs that have japanese titles and currently we have no real standard. I personally like having just the japanese for the song title because there is no true standardization for romanization so searching for the song by users would become hard. So my vote for a standard goes to just japanese in the song title. However, I think we should create a template that we can put on these pages (irregardless of what we decide as a standard) that looks something like:

This song title has the Japaneses 言葉. It is read as kotoba and means word.

What do think it should read and what should be the template name. {{JSong}}?
YukataNinja 14:46, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

That looks fine to me, but I would think that something like {{JaTitle}} would be more descriptive of what it does.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 19:24, 10 July 2007 (EDT)
Some artists add English titles versions of their title. One example I know is 中島みゆき (Miyuki Nakajima) who has recorded her more recent albums in L.A. So, the above template would help accommodate those titles.
If we are to go further in smaller detail, I think {{JaSongTitle}}. But to make it easier and shorter, I'll keep my preference at {{JaTitle}}.
-- BryghtShadow 01:27, 11 July 2007 (EDT)
Okay, I have created {{JaTitle}}. Please look over the code and should we make a category for inclusion with the template?
 - YukataNinja (Talk • C • 歌) 02:43, 11 July 2007 (EDT)
The only change I made was to make the translation parameter optional. While every title will have an English translation, not everybody will know it, so I thought it better to prevent cluttering the page with translations everywhere. Other than that, it looks excellent.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 08:09, 11 July 2007 (EDT)
And I changed the wording a little :) Didn't see you were working on the template here though. By the way, you won't forget to update the template listing will you? :) --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 11:57, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] http://wiki.theppn.org

I just posted a comment on the Community portal of a Japanese site, http://wiki.theppn.org, that currently has song lyrics, but today decided to stop allowing them and (as far as I can tell) to remove the lyrics already up. What I posted was this:


I am not really a member of this wiki, but I have been watching it for a while (the recent changes is in my RSS feed, right next to the wiki I admin) and I have been wanting to do this for some time.
I work at http://www.lyricwiki.org and am a member of the Japan lyrics group over there. I don't know the best place to do this here, but I would like to suggest cooperation between our two wikis. We would like to supply song lyrics, and your wiki supply artist profiles.
I hope that I am not out of line for doing this. I hope that we can work something out.
Teknomunk 13:44, 19 July 2007 (JST)[4]


I thought I better put a post here so that both of our wikis know that I am who I purport to be and so that we both know what is going on. I'll keep you updated of what happens.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 00:45, 19 July 2007 (EDT)

I spoke with an admin over there and it looks like it probably won't happen on their end. Oh well, it was worth a try.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 23:46, 19 July 2007 (EDT)
Ah, pity. Well, if they have any lyrics that we don't already have, would it be possible to bring them over to this side since they're going to remove them?
--BryghtShadow 00:29, 20 July 2007 (EDT)
Probably not. I won't take romanizations or translations from other sites (Kanji are another matter, they belong to the artist, not the site). To have the romanizations and translations here, each of the original submitters would have to submit them here.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 00:49, 20 July 2007 (EDT)
I see. --BryghtShadow 03:56, 20 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Artist names with three or five kanji

How should they be divided? For example, 平野・綾（ひらの・あや） could also be read 平・野綾 (although I don't know how you would pronounce that, but that's not really the point). Wikipedia uses no delimiters in the page name and then a half-width space in the actual article. A similar example with five characters is 加藤・英美里（かとう・えみり. Furthermore, there is no current standard (to my knowledge) to indicate the reading for an artist's name on that artist's page (or elsewhere, actually). ~ Wind Owl 00:00, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

Well, they should not be divided, the pagename should be 平野綾 (Aya Hirano). The romanized version of the artist's name should be put in parenthesis after the native version.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 22:30, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Character Songs

There should be a way to have character songs and give credit to both the character "singing" the song and to the real artist. I personally find the artist to be more important, but often, especially when dealing with albums, the character name is near inseparable. A good example might be found at 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱:ハレ晴レユカイ or 涼宮ハルヒ:Lost my music(old) (you will note that in the latter, no credit whatsoever is given to the person who actually sung, 平野綾). On most character albums, these situations are listed as 「キャラクターの名前（C.V.歌手の名前）」 (I would presume that the 'C.V.' is 'Character Voice'). This is quite a common occurrence for anime albums, and I think it should definitely be incorporated into LyricWiki. I'm fluent in Wikitext, so if it's decided that a template should be created I can easily handle that. ~ Wind Owl 00:09, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

I think how you put this on 涼宮ハルヒ:Lost my music(old) would work well, but the page should reside under the artist's real name and not the character name. It would, however, be appropriate to redirect the page with the character name to the artist name.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 22:30, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Anime Titles as Artist Names?

As seen in 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱:ハレ晴レユカイ. I'm not saying it should necessarily be changed; it's the best way I can think of. It just seems a little... odd. What about songs released under the 涼宮ハルヒ franchise, but only sung by one singer such as 平野綾:冒険でしょでしょ？ or 茅原実里:SELECT?? Should those be moved to the 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱 namespace? Should that namespace be destroyed and distributed to individual artists? That would certainly cause problems for ハレ晴レユカイ... It should also be pointed out that a version of ハレ晴レユカイ is in the very same album as 茅原実里:SELECT?, 平野綾:パラレルDays, and several other songs. There are in total nine albums like this. And while 涼宮ハルヒ is, admittedly, an extreme example, this occurs elsewhere as well. ~ Wind Owl 00:25, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

See the above response.
As a side note, you may want to look at the pages linked to from Anime Soundtrack Page, I think a box like that may be applicable to this anime.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 22:30, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Another Discussion (copied from Talk:L'Arc~en~Ciel)

[edit] Naming Conventions

I think it's important to standardize the songs and albums by using correct and simple naming conventions.

[edit] Artist Name

All L'Arc~en~Ciel songs should have the artist name as "L'Arc~en~Ciel" and not any other name such as "L'arc-En-Ciel" or "L'Arc~En~Ciel". This way, all of the songs will be connected to one page. I suggest making a L'Arc-en-Ciel redirect page.

[edit] Album and Song Names

Their names should use correct spelling, punctuation and letter casing (e.g. AWAKE, EXISTENCE, birth!, Tierra, heavenly, etc.). If the song name has a subtitle or second name, I suggest to try and keep the dashes, tildes or brackets separated from the name for a cleaner look even though the name is already correct (e.g. "get out from the shell -asian version-" instead of "get out from the shell-asian version-"). Song names should use kanji whenever is necessary, then followed by a forward slash and the romanization version of the name in a non-link italicized title next to it. Translated titles should only be mentioned within the song article.

Album names should also have their release year beside the name in brackets (e.g. AWAKE (2005)). This will avoid any conflicts with any albums with the same name, which is unlikely but it's good to be fully distinguishable.

[edit] Organization

[edit] Categories

There should be a category for albums, singles and compilations. By using the correct headlining, the table of contents would look like the one on this page.

Suggested usages:

  • H1: The main article header. Usage not recommended. (e.g. =L'Arc~en~Ciel=)
  • H2: Albums, singles, compilations. (e.g. ==Albums==)
  • H3: Album name. (e.g. ===[[L'Arc~en~Ciel:KISS (2007)|KISS (2007)]]===)

OR

  • H1: Albums, singles, compilations. (e.g. =Albums=)
  • H2: Album name. (e.g. ==[[L'Arc~en~Ciel:KISS (2007)|KISS (2007)]]==)

If you favour the horizontal rule under each album title, then I recommend the second usage.

[edit] Duplicates

If there are two or more articles about the same song with the same lyrics, they should be deleted or redirected to the more complete and correct version. If one has kanji and the other is romanized or translated, they should be merged keeping the most correctly named article and removing the old.

[edit] In Closing

There might be more things I would like to mention but I would li