User talk:Aquatiki/2008.06-09

From LyricWiki

[edit] Esperanza Newsletter Updated for July

[edit] AlbumFooter

This took me a bit to get right, but I finally did. You know how the Wikipedia link used had to have underscores? I fixed that with {{localurl: so we won't have to deal with underscores at all. Check this out:

{{localurl:Underscores Are A Thing Of The Past}}

Gives:

/Underscores_Are_A_Thing_Of_The_Past

King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 02:14, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
EDIT: also be careful, because of the extra slash at the beginning. That tripped me up the first time 'round

Thanks for that. I have learned a lot of parser functions lately (the other being {{#sterilizeTitle}} ) --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 03:33, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Underscores - what is the best practice

Hi, Aquatiki,

Your BotUm talk page says: "I'm currently fixing the underscore (_'s) problem"...

Can you please explain in a more detail way where's the problem you are talking about? I've used to read sometime somewhere Kiefer's discussion about that, and it was explained there that using of underscore used to be mandatory in early days of LW, but now there is almost no difference between using it or not. Now I noticed massive changes, made by BotUm, commented as "Robot: Automated text replacement (-_ + )". That may mean only one - for some reasons using of underscores is unacceptable from now on. But that's not documented nowhere; or I've missed something?

It would be great to know what is the best, or preferred, formatting policy at LW to make appropriate changes in code I'm using to format pages. Tia, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 03:13, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

The best practice is to not use underscores. At first (in that far off 'Old LyricWiki' which the cave drawings talk about) underscores were necessary for links to work. Now that they are not required the underscores are going the way of the dodo, being that a page of links with underscores is much less easy to read than a page with spaces instead. This is not to say that they are unacceptable. I would be hard pressed to think of anything that is unacceptable, except for maybe for, say, removing {{Song}} templates or something.

I must ask, since you've mentioned it: is there a reason to keep underscores?

And lastly, in the case of documentation. I do not think there is any per se.

King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 03:57, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

The reason I'm going through and removing underscores is because they're ugly!! Links to internal or Wikipedia pages will of course continue to work with them in, but they prevent text wrapping while editing. As Kingnee said, they used to be necessary: now they're just in the way. --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 08:15, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for clarification (it would be funy if I said that I liked underscores! ;)). But I still think that such things must be commented in documentation. Regards, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 08:35, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Philosophically, I agree with you (in regards to how things should be done). That is, documentation should dictate behavior. However, the precedent around here seems to be that documentation is mostly descriptive, not proscriptive (there are some exceptions). Just try to go with the flow!

Also, I think the software changes faster than some people would like, so we're often left playing catch-up! --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 08:49, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

I like philosophical point of view to the life and programming :). But sometimes pragmatic point of view (e.g. - formulating rules) saves us from vasting our time doing unnecessary coding, and you - from the same vain uncoding :). Take it easy - just philosophizing ;)--Senvaikis ^(talk) 12:00, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Fitzgerald Ella

Hi Aquatiki,

last November you redirected Fitzgerald Ella to Ella Fitzgerald (as it should be), but didn't move/redirect all the songs on that page. (I stumbled upon one of them when browsing through Random pages – a very useful feature in catching stray errors). From what I gathered, admins have some sort of magical ritual to do that task automatically...? -- 6 times 9 14:18, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Am unaware of the admin-based, super-secret, power-technique. However, I could turn my bot onto it, after it done with its current, big task. I'll add it to her to do list! --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 15:38, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Admins can move large groups of pages from say, Fitzgerald Ella to Ella Fitzgerald, but there isn't an automatic way to redirect. psst, aquatiki... special pages...batch move.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:40, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Well I'll be a pickled turd scoop! I never saw that before! <Sheepish> --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 23:43, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

that's how super-secret it really is! :-]    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:44, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Um ... dude :

Fatal error: Call to a member function doEdit() on a non-object in
/var/www/html/lyricwiki.org/extensions/LyricWiki/Special_BatchMove.php on line 154

Should I tell Sean? --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 23:45, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

All Ella's Eloquance is under one (rather large) roof now. cheers EchoSierra 19:51, 2 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] The new song template..

I can't find the new template in the template list so I'm guessing it isn't operational yet?  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 16:24, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

What was I supposed to do? I forgot! I made fa-fa5 at Template:Song/sandbox. What else is there? --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 22:32, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

Sorry...I found it now..|fa  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 23:06, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

There's a bug. It seems like there is an extra space between the artistname and the period. I'll see if I can't fix it...

King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 02:03, 18 July 2008 (EDT)

Question which prompted my query above: How does one go about moving templates to main Template category allowing for general use (i.e. out of users own Sandbox)? The reason I ask is partly because of a comment you made on EchoSierra's talk page re the awards I created, since I created these not just for me, but for everyone to use.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 11:36, 18 July 2008 (EDT)

Well, that doesn't really apply in the case: I changed the main-mega template itself. If you're making a new thing, you should use

<noinclude>[[Category:The Category for the template]]</noinclude>
 <includeonly>[[Category:The Category for pages using the template]]</includeonly>

--Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 11:44, 18 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Underscores in image names

One more question about underscores, now being replaced by spaces. That's ok for pagenames, but how about images? I'm not sure, but seems to me that in some cases such replace makes image invisible (replaced by broken link). Take for example MusicBrainz icon (http://lyricwiki.org/images/9/91/Kingnee_-_Musicbrainz.png). Here you can see how it looks after replace: (http://lyricwiki.org/images/9/91/Kingnee - Musicbrainz.png). I haven't checked how it affects other images, just decided to let you know about that.

BTW, thank you for nice job in {{Song}}!

Regards, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 16:22, 19 July 2008 (EDT)

Sen, I see what you mean but I don't think it'll be a problem. BotUm is just going though the main namespace (i.e., not touching Template:Whatever, Help:Whatever, etc.) As you can see from what you typed, if you just enter the URL of an image, Medawiki (the wiki software) replaces it with an unlinked, embedded image. It true that in such cases, the first space is where it thinks the URL ends. However, we don't use images that way on LW; every image is part of a template here. As a parameter, it doesn't matter whether you use underscores or spaces, only spaces are prettier to look at! Does that make sense? --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 21:30, 19 July 2008 (EDT)

Yes, it does, but: ..."However, we don't use images that way on LW"... Indeed? Who are those "we"? Surely I'm not in that company, because I wasn't ever informed about that :)

If it's banned somewhere and I've just missed that, then something must be done with pages like this , regardless of Kiefer's estimation as 'excellent' - it looks that way only until BotUm find it :) Oh, yes, I must warn Redxx too - to move this page from list of good examples to 'bads' one.

So, we are naturally returning to question about page formatting policy. Take it easy, Aq, but this time I won't hush up some reasonings about documentation, rules & policies in programming (I intentionally did that last time). Just imagine you are a member of a big team of developers, making some project of software, intended to communicate with another applications by a mean of some set of protocols. Now imagine: you are saying your team manager that documentation of your module, describing requirements for communication protocols, are just "descriptive, not prescriptive", and therefore you haven't wrote it as 'not important'. You'd be fired immediately, I suppose. Excuse me, but imo LW is very similar to that team & that set of protocols.

Please don't treat that as some harassment - just there are more issues indicating that page formatting policy should be strengthened. Regards, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 07:12, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

OK, I'm not gonna take any of this personally! I'll just answer your question in order. Bryan Ferry And Roxy Music: More Than This - The Best Of Bryan Ferry And Roxy Music (1995) looks like it was a test run by somebody before we changed Template:SongFooter. Nobody wants anyone "hushed up". Feel free to change and LW documentation pages if you see they're out of date. I agree with you about how things should be done here, but there aren't enough other people who think so. The other admins are laid-back and I can't make them more proactive. I think that the reason LW is so low on the Google ranks is because we don't strive harder to be the best of the best. But there's only so much one man can do. But maybe we'll make it two! I don't feel harassed, I just want to let you know the climate here. Don't just talk about what needs doing: just do it! People will fix it is they think you're screwing up! --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 08:43, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks, Aq, - very good advice in your comment; sad only that I just can't follow it. Read my Unanswered questions, may be some other discussions, and you'll see that some things I'm talking about just can't be solved by ordinary user as me, without admins. And it concerns not only such pure admin-owned things as API or bots. Even such 'simple' things as documentation, rules and policies should be seriously discussed in community and approved at least by part of it. So, if I can't change API, which doesn't show all songs of artist due to page splitting into subpages, I'm just speaking about that to admins. If the same problem raises due to HTML tags-based formatting in song list, I'm doing the same. If you name this "just talking" - it's up to you. One thing I know for sure - I'm not going to revert edits made by admins...:) I just really want to make LW better, and I'd be very glad if you show me how can I do my best :)--Senvaikis ^(talk) 17:49, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

I'm going to assume that the term "laid-back" was just a bad choice of words and refrain from ranting and raving about the hard work and dedication to the site that each admin has proven themselves to have. Instead, I'll just point out that API isn't an admin thing, but a Sean thing. His talk page has a section dedicated to it, as a matter of fact.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   00:30, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Maybe if I were paid to do this, and I was able to support myself by just doing LW all day (believe me I would), I could be more 'proactive.' However, I still do all that I can, and have invested countless hours into LW. Aquatiki, if you think that some particular thing is not getting done, maybe you should handle it. That's what I did in my own way, and LW is better for it (I would hope). That's how this kind of community is supposed to work.

King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 01:02, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Guys! I was not saying that people don't work hard here! Sen and I were having a philosophical discussion! We're not saying that people don't work hard here! I think he and I are both used to more heavy-handed, top-down hierarchies. LW doesn't work that way, mostly. We don't operate by having decisions handed down from on high, policy pages being changed, and then everyone falling into line. I run my own wiki that way and that might explain why I have one or two people besides myself who contribute! All I was saying to Sen is that his expectations are incorrect for how the admin's here work: we don't dictate a lot of minutiae to people. I am very sorry if anyone misunderstood my statements to be insinuating that anyone is lazy. --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 01:18, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

I do understand that this is not the top down format that one would expect. Even I sometimes expect top down rulings. I am not disagreeing with your assessment of our policy. I am not saying that you think the other admin are lazy. What I am calling you on here is:

...and I can't make them more proactive. I think that the reason LW is so low
on the Google ranks is because we don't strive harder to be the best of the best.

I am willing to ignore the 'laid-back' comment, but the rest of it is hard to dismiss. You make it sound like the other admin and I have been ignoring you, despite some sort of claim from you that things should be done differently (if you can show a conversation where you say things should be differently, I will retract this in full).

King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 02:36, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

I guess this is going to be the confrontation I've seen coming Discussions like LyricWiki_talk:Community_Portal#Google_Search_Result just don't go anywhere. Folks here are concerned with making pages better and doing hard work, but things like still using MediaWiki 1.7 and not having any page-ranking system show that we are laissez-faire when it comes to "meta-administration". That is, we stop spam, we document what we are doing, but we don't proactively set a course for what we want to be come, measure our progress towards it, and complete it. I'm not being ignored, I just know that that's not how we operate. Sorry if this is rude, but it's what I see. --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 03:01, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

The Google Search Result wasn't a discussion, because it didn't propose anything. It's basically "I think LyricWiki should do better" and probably got a few nods that yes, it would be good if the site were a bit higher. Nothing to comment on, however, so no one did. As for MediaWiki 1.7, it was tried once to update to the latest version and things conflicted and crashed the site for about a week. Just today Sean wrote on his talk page, however, that another attempt (hopefully this time without the crash) is in the works.

As for ...we don't proactively set a course for what we want to become, measure our progress towards it..., that's because the site isn't ours. It's Sean's. We have to follow what his needs are and what his vision of the site is. We have some "power", for lack of a better word, but essentially we are like team coaches, with control over what happens on the field and calling plays and all of that, but we certainly don't own the team. If you want (to keep the analogy going) to move the team to another city, then talking to the coach won't get you very far.

Sean, although he loves the site and works hard to keep things going smoothly, also has other obligations that help pay his bills and therefore this site's bills as well. If he had more support and more contributions for this site, I'm sure he could/would spend even more time here being as "proactive" as you envision. If you have something that you'd like to see implemented and want community feedback, then discuss it in the Community Portal. If you have something specific that you think should be fixed and is tech-related, then leave a note on Sean's talk page.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:29, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Sean is a busy guy with a real life. He is the only bureaucrat, the only one with FTP access. This is sometimes called the "GodKing"/Benevolent Dictator of a community/wiki. He's a good guy, but he has real life things to take care of. The way I see it, we are at a bit of an impasse. The other, popular lyric sites operate for-profit and must use expensive server-farms to handle their volume of traffic. They're likely to be a lot more cut-throat because they're competing for ad-revenue. We're not-for-profit and we have one server which we max out. If we had a rigorous strategy for SEO, maybe we wouldn't be so obscure and could actually change the internet.

I'm not interested in "moving the team", but I stand by my statement that Sean isn't very proactive. He's a busy guy, so he might oughta consider sharing the reigns of power. He has an active life outside of LW and that impacts us here. But how do you say, "Dude, can you let someone else have some control over the project you started and over the server you own?" I'm not advocating a change in the way anyone acts within LW, nor do I have technical problems. I hope Sen and I were talking about "meta-administration" and since there is nowhere to discuss that, my talk page is as good as place as any. --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 00:44, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Hey, guys! I'm getting feel a little ill at ease looking what a debates I've involved Aq in. What I wanna say for all of you - I do know that all of you are donating your leisure to make LW better; so if someone's expressing some unpalatable note - please don't treat that as some personal challenge. I vote for free and manly thought exchange, but without losing spirit of goodwill, creativity and... a little sense of humor. Otherwise I'll be afraid to say anything here :)--Senvaikis ^(talk) 03:21, 23 July 2008 (EDT) P.S. Note for King: I was forced to remove "style=overf l o w : auto" - spam filter disliked it:)--Senvaikis ^(talk) 03:21, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Userboxes!!!

Wow! Userboxes! Why didn't I think of that!?! I stole some and put them on my page. I shall try to think of some more myself. Welcome! --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 13:55, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Good job transcluding my boxes, I hate when people subst: them and screw up code and whatnot >:(, lol.

Feel free to edit them as much as you want. I only used one color scheme for all of them and could really use variation. PatPeter 14:01, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

I started some new one's with the pattern [[Template:UBX:blah blah blah]]. Can we move yours there? --Aquatiki

Alright I fixed your message, the problem is if you do [[Template:UBX:#1]] subpages do not kick in, rather if you did [[Template:UBX/#1]] it would work much better. Also, we might want to consider making it [[User:UBX]] and not [[Template:UBX]], since sockpuppets are generally frowned upon in I would have to talk to Sean about it.

Even another possibility is just placing them in Template namespace by themselves, like Template:User #1. -PatPeter 14:32, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Take a look at some L's. Do any of them (or some other L) strike you as good for you userbox? And how about a slash? --Aquatiki 14:34, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Why would it be sockpuppetry to make them templates? And why wouldn't we want to make them all start with the same prefix? I can see using /'s not :'s to get the subpage effect, but if Sean doesn't enable that in the server settings, it doesn't matter what we use: no subpages. --Aquatiki 14:36, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

The first one looks good, as we could easily adjust it to the current color scheme, just have to make parts of the userbox black. Also what do you mean by slash? You mean for Template:UBX? I think a new category for these userboxes would be best. Of course this would also mean that we need to make LyricWiki:Userboxes. Oh and you can sign your name with ~~~~, just last time you signed it the four tildes did not process, and obviously I cannot sign your name for you so I put it down like I did. -PatPeter 14:50, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Look at this userbox, subpages are enabled "< User:PatPeter". And no it wouldn't be sockpuppetry to make them templates, but making them Template:UBX is sort of a copy of User:UBX from Wikipedia, mumble mumble scratch out, the reason User:UBX is a user on Wikipedia is because the argument was that too many userboxes with format Template:User userboxname were in Template namespace, so instead of Template:UBX it would be better to do Template:User userboxname for important boxes, and make a User:UBX for userboxes like "I like pie", or "I like singing in the shower". -PatPeter 14:50, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

hee Yes, I can sing great in the shower...  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 15:49, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Redxx Wikipedia pwned your page lol. -PatPeter 18:01, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Haa haa..you are a proper comedian Peter..you almost got me  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 18:13, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

I won't have you delete the userbox, I'll just change it! yay! -PatPeter 17:49, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Well deserved!!

		The Platinum Record
		Aquatiki, I hereby present you with this Platinum Record for all the great new ideas you implement!  ♫Яєdxx ♪♫♪♫♪Talk 06:55, 26 July 2008 (EDT)>

Sweet! Another gold CD! >-P --Aquatiki - T - E 06:57, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

No, look again.. ;)  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 08:02, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Watchlist Feeds

As mentioned on Main Page, we now have watchlist RSS/Atom feeds at Special:WatchlistFeed.
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌,A) 01:38, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Violet Songs

Just wondering why there aren't any templates on the talk pages for a lot of these songs?  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 21:46, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

I think I may have got show/hide tables working. I got distracted. Give me a couple hours and watch out for {{Star Box}} in a giff! --Aquatiki - T - E 22:20, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] SongFooter-Amazon

I noticed you changed SF a little, so I wanted to point out a bug: any page without an album, the song does not have a title. Check out Modest Mouse:Cowboy Dan for example.
King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 01:20, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Dude, that template is freakin' ugly! I hate it! ... sorry ... had to vent. Whew I feel better. After hours of futzing, I think I got it to work right. Yes? --Aquatiki - T - E 05:43, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Oh dear...Sorry Aqua...you can throw something at me if you want..hee hee  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 12:17, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

I've got another bug for you, again for songfooter with no album: check out the amazon line on Tarkio:Mountains of Mourne. There's two dots, not one!

King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 02:53, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

I fixed it. --Aquatiki - T - E 03:11, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Hi, Aq; I have one more 3-min job ;) Sometimes Amazon links in song footer looses separator between album & song (at least for songs having no asin). Sample--Senvaikis ^(talk) 15:00, 3 August 2008 (EDT):

Thanks :)--Senvaikis ^(talk) 08:00, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

You owe me! That is the mother of all templates. Only Template:Navbar is worse. --Aquatiki - T - E 08:35, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Agree, I owe you, and not only for this fix - you've notably enlivened LW :) But others owe me too - for pointing to the bug, it's symptoms and knowing a guy, able (and wanting) to fix that ;) Cheers, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 13:10, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Your BotUm is misbehaving slightly

Hello.

Your BotUm is misbehaving slightly. It substituted a space for an underscore in this edit and this one, both of which stopped the youtube video link from working. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 10:01, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

You know, I was aware of this but haven't figured out a way around it. Currently, it's just changing every underscore to a space, regardless of where it occurs. You can use %5f if you want an underscore to survive. I'll change it for you. Sorry, but there are so many underscores in such a variety of places that I can't figure out a way to tell a machine how to know which ones are good and which aren't! :-( --Aquatiki - T - E 10:09, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

A generic solution could be to test for lines starting with "|video =" and leave ubderscores within alone. Define an array for exceptions, so other cases can be handled too....my 2 cents! EchoSierra 14:20, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Mmmm...could be wrong, but I think it's affecting NOTOC & NOEDIT too...  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 21:15, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Which musta led to ...This and This. EchoSierra 01:49, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

And also here it went wrong :) --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 17:02, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Another problem is with external links that contain spaces (i.e. most Wikipedia links) – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/some_article alternative text] produces alternative text; replace the underscore and you get article alternative text. -- 6 times 9 10:57, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

Please see this oops! EchoSierra 04:20, 28 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Categories

I just happened to notice new category "Songs needing language identification". I think the help page may need amending because I'm sure it says somewhere that this defaults to English and needs only to be filled in if language is not English.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 12:42, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

I can't find that. Do you think we should add that, either by bot or in {{SongFooter}}? --Aquatiki - T - E 12:52, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

I had a little looky around but I couldn't find the page where I read that. Maybe I imagined it. However I don't think I'm the only admin that thinks the language parameter doesn't need completing if song is in English, 'cos look >>> User_talk:Mark_Arandjus. Anyway, I think it should definitely be the default. In the interim however, could you possibly do me a SUBST for this parameter like KingNee kindly provided me with, which I can use if it's English language to help me with correcting the uncategorised pages? I would be ever so grateful...hee hee  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 12:53, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

I don't think Kingnee did that, per se, as much as he is taking advantage of a bit of server side programming that gives us certain variables. Just copy this into your clipboard (ctrl+c)

{{SongFooter
| song     = {{Subst:SONG}}
| fLetter  = {{Subst:FLETTER}}
| album    = 
| artist   = {{Subst:ARTIST}}
| language = English
}}

Anyway, I think we should post this question of at LyricWiki talk:Administrators Portal: should we turn a bot on making all language = into English, or should we make the template default if nothing is specified? I'll bet it's the template, but we should see before acting. --Aquatiki - T - E 13:16, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

secondary conversation moved to LyricWiki talk:Administrators Portal/Templates

[edit] I love

...your new chart on your user page, but did you know that you can only see the artists in the second and third categories in edit mode? Scrap that...I can see they are underneath.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 07:05, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Compilation Template

Does the Compilation template need overhaul to include all the attributes of regular albums (itunes, language etc.) and is it possible to have a button or a means of initiating the album page creation by defining it as such right off the bat. So that fetching Psychedelic Syncopated Serenades (1969) would lead to a compilation rather than a regular album, same with Soundtracks. Cheers EchoSierra 02:10, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Good catch! 'Totally missed that. I will go edit {{Album/Soundtrack}} in ... ten minutes. Then I'll message the powers at be to see about adding a regular expression with page creation of ones that look like compilation albums. --Aquatiki - T - E 02:27, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] The

fletter for albums/songs, where this is "The" should the fletter be T or is it the letter of next word?  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 07:12, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

I think "T", though I'm only 80% on that. That's what I've seen other admins do, though I've seen nothing written. --Aquatiki - T - E 07:17, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Thank you. I have always thought so too. The reason I ask is because I've updated info on {{Album}} a little as was a bit outdated and thought it would be helpful to users to use 'The' as example. (I'm sure what I've done is Ok, but would nevertheless be glad if you would cast your eye over this for me at some point). I'll seek further clarification on the T bit though to be sure.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 07:24, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

It is indeed "T" for "The" items. Even Sean at one point was confused about that, but there's a discussion that he and I had somewhere and he agreed that fLetter should mean the first letter, regardless of A or An or The or Le or La or L' or.... (That's a project that should be done, however...making "The" items also show up in a sub-category of T, but organized by the first letter after "The".)    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   07:25, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

P.S. I just moved the {{Album}} documentation to {{Album/doc}}. --Aquatiki - T - E 07:26, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Funny... Instead of comments - just try to create new album Xxxx:The Yyyy (zzzz), using new album template - fletter'll be Y :)--Senvaikis ^(talk) 09:41, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

There was a discussion a while back about this at User_talk:Sean_Colombo/Archive/2008_Jan_27_-_2008_Feb_23#Autotemplates. From there, there is a link to Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Artists#Artist_Template that states:

Send "Aquatiki/2008.06-09" Ringtone to your Cell Phone

Send "Aquatiki/2008.06-09" Ringtone to your Cell Phone

Currently, the code for calculating the song's fLetter skips "The". One of the two, the documentation or the code, will need to be changed. Personally, I don't have an opinion on the matter; either way will work for me.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌,A) 10:30, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Yes I knew I'd seen a discussion somewhere, so thanks for the link. I feel this definitely needs to be clarified once and for all. Editors need to know what to insert as fletter in such instances, regardless of how the code calculates it. If the auto template ignores the "The", then it would seem to imply to many that we should be too. As you rightly say Teknomunk, one of the two, either the help documentation, or the code needs to be changed.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 10:50, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks teknomunk for finding that link. I was literally on for about 3 minutes this morning before rushing out the door and didn't have the time to search. It states my concerns about fLetter pretty well. (Although I'm not sure I'd advocate the hard-wiring anymore. I really think a sub-category would be best. --Although I guess the sub-category would likely need to be hardwired?--)    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   21:47, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

I already have an unanswer question with The Man: does someone else wanna put this to him on his talk page? --Aquatiki - T - E 11:57, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm wondering what is the purpose of the fLetter, besides yielding the correct letter for sorting so that The Who shows under W rather than T? (but currently the fLetter defined for The Who is T, which imho, is wrong). I'd vote for fLetter to behave like iTune's: (Track -> Get Info -> Sorting) where the second column in that panel provides functions that are made possible by a correct definition of fLetter... so that in iTunes when sorted by artist The Who is in W not T. cheers EchoSierra 14:36, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm pretty sure they started that for the categories. Having one big Category:Songs would've been too unwieldy, so they decided to have Song A, Song B, etc. (It would've been some much simpler to have installed Semantic MediaWiki!). I think, now, we want it to be more useful than originally planned, so my vote is for skipping "The" and "A(n)". --Aquatiki - T - E 14:43, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Left message on Sean's talk page  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 19:28, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] A Favor and a couple of Star-related items

I'm planning on revamping the major help pages soon (cosmetic, mostly, but to also see what else needs to be added/updated). The <pre>-surrounded sections (as in Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Artists#Template) drives me crazy. If one narrows their window, parts go over the edges, and it just looks horrible. I tried to make a box to go around such a section, but I was having to use a lot of <nowiki>s and such and then it also would show in a serif font, and I was just having a dickens of a time. If you could create a template that could surround such a section, I'd be quite grateful, as my head is hurting. Eventually I'm going to colorize the sections that should be edited, so that those cumbersome greater-than and less-than signs can be removed.

Also, with regards to downloads for songs (so that I can fill in those holes on the songs that I've certified and gain gold star status), where do you suggest that I look?

Also, whenever the Star system is updated for songs, I'd really like to see that song credits are part of the necessary elements to gain gold star status. We really should have this for all songs, and that might be a way to get those composers and lyricists the recognition that they deserve.

Thanks in advance -    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   22:18, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

It's nigh on impossible to find legal sources for downloading songs. I agree with you that it would be nice to credit composers and lyricists, all I will say is that having already walked this route with my own mp3 collection, it is often difficult to find accurate information. Allmusic is the only site I know to list composers (they don't differentiate between lyricists and composers), Discogs if you're lucky and sometimes Wikipedia, but I have often found the information to conflict.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 22:40, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

I know...we have Amazon & iTunes links, and we even have GoEar with which to "listen" to the songs. I'm sure there are other legal sources like Amazon & iTunes (Microsoft has a site, don't they?), but I'm not sure what they are. I don't download - I like to have a physical item, so I'm not sure where to look.

As for the credits, I'm assuming that those old-fashioned things called CDs and LPs are a good source!  :-] (P.S. I have certified & watched Queen:Bohemian Rhapsody after getting tired of watching punctuation battles. Care to join me in the watch?)    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   22:48, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

OK, three points in turn.

1. I'm not sure how to go about making what you want. The two things that come to mind are to make a scrollable, <code>-like, which is what they do on WikiMedia sites, or an uneditable textarea. However, they use an extension, Extension:SyntaxHighlight GeSHi, which requires 1.10+. As you know, we're back on holy-security-holes 1.7. I've seen extensions that let you have a text field, but none for a multi-line text area. ... A third way would be some custom CSS, but I'll have to go read about that possibility. For now, I have no idea how.
2. I did not intend to become the Lord High Master of When a Page is Perfect when I created the star system. I think credits are a great idea, but I don't see it being very widely used, talked about, or documented. If there's a consensus to put it in, of course I'll do it, but I don't want to be sticking my neck out (just to get it chopped off) for striking out and setting policy alone. I'd love the power, but I don't think I have it!
3. As far as I know, the legal download option is very rarely used and not available for any artist signed to a major record label. The is one WAY exception, but I think it's intended for indie band who are free to do that kind of thing. I'm certainly not looking hard for non-fledgling bands. Indie band have it on their website.

--Aquatiki - T - E 11:26, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Ah, well, thank you for the pondering about my problem. I shall ponder further, I guess.

What? You didn't intend to become the Lord High Master of When a Page is Perfect? I guess I'll have to cancel the plaque that I ordered, then.... :-] Seriously, though, I don't think that adding the credits (which we should really have endeavored to have on each song page) as a necessary step to become gold is sticking your neck out too much. It really should be a requisite part of all song pages. It's just that getting that information takes some research (usually the album/CD itself is enough) and contributors - myself included - are a bit lazy about that bit. Supposedly most of us work on the site because of our love of the music that we are editing. Giving the appropriate credit and honoring those who created the music seems only right.

As for the download parameter, I guess I'll use "not applicable" for mainstream artists then?    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   14:00, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm happy watching your dispute about 'mandatory' download parameter (have you seen at least one filled?) Can you explain, why this parameter is mandatory despite having almost no applicatition, while LrcDB is optional regardless to ~20000 records?--Senvaikis ^(talk) 16:39, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Doh! Sen launches a righteous, sneak attack from below! Touché! I think that this kind of point is what I'm taking about when I say I don't want to decide these things. What would make me feel the best would be is these kinds of discussions would lead to some sort of voting process, perhaps off of LW:AP, so someone could feel confident they're in the right, before they go tearing down the page that are already Gold back to Silver. Seriously, can we start LyricWiki:Administrators Portal/Vote:Credits (and LyricWiki:Administrators Portal/Vote:LrcDB)? I've been in a few communities before, and people who act without consensus get crucified. I would vote for both.

And yes, I have been putting 'not applicable' for mainstream artists. --Aquatiki - T - E 19:44, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Haa haa...enjoyable bedtime reading guys. Thanks for that. I agree with Senv about the download option (and I know it's Sean's site but Pedlr is similar in being not applicable too). I also agree with Kiefer in that some attempt should be made to give credit to the composers. However most of my music is in mp3 format. As such I have to research the composers, and like I say often this information conflicts. I would certainly be happy to enter something, but I would not be happy to state I believed it to be 100% accurate. Voting is also a good idea.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 21:17, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Vote & discuss here.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:40, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Re: LyricWiki talk:Community Portal

Archive away! (Sure needs it!)    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   22:34, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

lol Funnily enough I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier.. _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 22:58, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Remember when...

..you told me about this User_talk:Redxx/Archive/May_2008#Self-Patrol, well I didn't want to be the one to tell him (in case something has gone a bit awry with his adminship status, etc. whilst he's been inactive), but could you look into why Mischko's edits are coming up as needing patrolling and advise him accordingly? Thank you :-)  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 16:51, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

I've been worried/noticing too. I don't know about his status. Ask somebody else ... who's been here longer! -Nervously --Aquatiki - T - E 22:15, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Haa haa OK  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 08:47, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Line breaks

When making userboxes try not to place line breaks inbetween includeonly tags like:

<includeonly>
</includeonly>
<noinclude>
</noinclude>

As the line breaks transclude onto the page. Instead:

<includeonly></includeonly><noinclude></noinclude>

And for an expanded example:

<includeonly>[[Category:Whatever]]</includeonly><noinclude><br clear="all"/>

== Usage ==
*To use this do this

[[Category:Goes here next to noinclude]]</noinclude>

-PatPeter 13:16, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Wiki-Lyrics script

Just wanted to ensure you saw this.. User_talk:Kingnee1114lyrics#Wiki-Lyrics_control_page  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 20:48, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks. Those things bug me. --Aquatiki - T - E 22:03, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Page Ranking Scheme

Was what I told this user Ok? User_talk:Firehawk  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 21:18, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

Exactomundo. --Aquatiki - T - E 22:28, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] RE:

Nah man, college starts tomorrow and I haven't been on the computer in days, lmao I haven't had time. Thank you for making the redirect userbox, and its color scheme is much better than the horrible template I would have put on it. Remind me to look more into Semantics and whatnot, it intrigues me but I cannot find its purpose in a nutshell. -PatPeter 15:46, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Sounds like I would love it, majoring in Computer Science after all. -PatPeter 16:39, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Check out my mock up of LyricWiki on SMW to see how cool it would be. I implemented all three of your suggestions/userbox ideas. I think you'll find it kick major butt. --Aquatiki - T - E 16:42, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Eddi Reader

Haa Haa...there's about 30 "Red told me to"'s on recent changes..Very funny :-)  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 23:38, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

ha ha. I thought you'd appreciate that. --Aquatiki - T - E 23:41, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Page Ranking Help Pages

When you get a minute can you cast your eye over the Help Pages that Kiefer and I have been working on to help users who are now wanting (but not able, or understanding how) to participate in Page Ranking? Kiefer has done most of this. I've basically just come along afterwards, like I normally do (rfl), and done my usual bit of interfering ;). The bit that I confess I am personally still very unsure about is the requirements for Artist (and what might give artist Violet status). As such I don't think I have written these instructions correctly on the Help Page and Kiefer hasn't actually seen this page as yet. Thanks!  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 17:24, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

I added the violet data. I've been very interested to let you'all do this without me, to see how well I communicated my goals on the templates and LW:PR. I think you all did OK and I successfully communicated my intentions. I'll try to write an intro at Help:Page ranking. --Aquatiki - T - E 18:10, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

Hee hee I knew you must've seen what we been up to and I would've done exactly the same in your shoes and for exactly the same reasons too. I was just concerned about the Artist page that I did and I wanted to get it right before Kiefer came back and saw it later tonight. Boy - he's going to be pleased! Particularly with what you did on the Help:Page ranking (Thank you). Well he has done an excellent job, as I'm sure you agree. My part in this was minor in comparison. I think I'm best at getting the ball rolling and then, at the other end of the spectrum, coming along afterwards and interfering/meddling (hee hee).  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 19:02, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Job Queue

Yeah, I am really sorry about that. I didn't think when I made the change that other templates used that template so it had more of a domino effect. I thought {{Asin}} was used only for separate links, but apparently {{SongFooter}} and others use it within their templates. I didn't think to look at which pages included the template which is my fault. I felt really bad afterwards because everything was going slow, so I have learned a good lesson from this. Thank you for pointing this out to me, though. --WillMak050389 15:38, 31 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Help with Bot

I hope you don't mind taking a look [|here] and giving me a clue! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ☏ • ⎋ • ⌫) EchoSierra 11:31, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Hey, in case you didn't notice, I dropped your bot a message. --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 12:46, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Another look? :) [|here] EchoSierra 08:08, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Page Ranking Templates

What's happened to all the page ranking templates? They look weird - they aren't enclosed in the pretty boxes anymore on talk page (or even on actual template page)...  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 03:41, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads up! Something has changed on the site that is making MediaWiki:Common.css and MediaWiki:Common.js not function correctly. These pages themselves haven't been changed, so it must be something server-side. I will email Sean right away. --Aquatiki - T - E 04:06, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Any news on this yet Aqua? Only I think this is affecting all tables, not just page ranking. I think it might also be interfering with the bots, as I can't get Sandbot to do a simple replace tonight and am getting weird error messages (in which the word 'table' is mentioned).  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 20:11, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

Well Sean said he couldn't figure it out, but that he's also too busy to try. If you've noticed, I've given up for the most part on LW until this server upgrade. I used to have dial up (baaaad dial up) and I just get too frustrated now to wait 30 seconds for each page load. Once the server upgrade is done, I think Sean will be able to look at this and not before. And, unfortunately, he's the only one that can do anything about it. I'm just concentrating on my own wiki these days :-(. -Aquatiki - T - E 21:14, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

Thank you. Ok I guess I'll just have to sit this one out. With regards to not being so active, I think it's the same for all of us - extremely frustrating. Some days are better than others, but recently it has been impossible to edit so I do understand. I only hope the upgrade happens very soon, before we lose too many users...and experienced editors :(. Take care.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 04:51, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

Glad to see you're back in action Aqua :-) and seeing as you are...