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Contents 1 The Arrogant Worms 2 The Arrogant Worms 3 The Beach Boys 4 Jethro Tull 5 Jethro Tull 6 Jethro Tull 7 Image Trouble 8 Nice work... 9 Strange Song Template Behaviour 10 Viva la Janitah! 11 It Isn't a New Car, But... (Who can afford gas anyhow?) 12 API: postSong(), Refering to Compilations 13 2 Things 14 Nice hustle! 15 Strangeness with redirects 16 Heard about Page Ranking? 17 Thanks 18 Compilations 19 Display Capitalization 20 Adminship 21 Deletions 22 Re: Neil Young 23 Album Art 24 Striking the iron, or 'broken record' 25 Kristofferson - Wow! 26 Bot Speed 27 Language Unknown 28 Bot Portal 29 Just wanted to say 30 More Work For Your Bot 31 Lyrics tags in Instrumental songs 32 RRRRrrrggg - SPAMMERS! 33 Language of songs having instrumental parts 34 Strange 'autogen. song page (WLv0.12.9)' 35 Illegal Character in SNLI 36 Category:Language/ 37 Bet that felt good ;) 38 NC 39 Remember our old friend - Sezen Aksu:Her&Thorn;Eyi Yak ??? 40 Speaking of fLetter... 41 Psst... Kill the ads. 42 Removing links on talk pages 43 Bot Talk 44 Album Art caption on album pages 45 Matthew Good:A Long Way Down 46 After The Ball Is Over 47 Recent Batch Moves and Deletions 48 Cleanup on the SNLI Talk Aisle 49 Bot Portal 50 Bot Idea 51 Award 52 Album Template 53 1985:1985 54 Mad dogs and Englishmen... 55 If You And Your Bot Have A Moment To Spare 56 John Lee Hooker 57 PJ/Pj Harvey 58 SNLI 59 The Best Of Broadside 1962–1988 (2000) 60 A call to arms, of sorts

[edit] The Arrogant Worms

I'm a little confused about what happened to this page. I was monitoring the Talk pages (lately we've been getting hit by spammers there), and I noticed your note about the merge that took place. I looked at both pages (The Arrogant Worms and Arrogant Worms) and all of the links on the The Arrogant Worms page had "Arrogant Worms" as the assigned artist, and all of the links on the Arrogant Worms page had "The Arrogant Worms" as the assigned artist. Somehow things got a bit turned around, it seems.

So I have moved "Arrogant Worms" (which was the more complete page and used the artist's correct name in the links) to "The Arrogant Worms." This has created a redirect at Arrogant Worms. Which means that whatever songs that would normally be placed there by our Janitor bot will eventually find their way to The Arrogant Worms' Other Songs list. When they do, they will need to be moved or redirected to the correct "The Arrogant Worms" song page. If you need help with any of that, feel free to let me know. Thanks for your edits and contributions, and I hope that you enjoy your time here at LyricWiki.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:30, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] The Arrogant Worms

Thanks for the clean up, that was my intention. I tried moving "TAW" to "AW" and failed. Is there a list somewhere of what duties the bots do, so I don't duplicate what they do? Had a look at Uberbot's page so now I know it'll fetch lyrics.

cheers

I don't think there is such a list. I think, however, there are basically 3 bots for the site. User:Sean Colombo works with User:ÜberBot, User:Teknomunk works with User:Janitor, and User:Aquatiki works with User:BotUm. Uberbot usually does the Song of the Day switching, as well as scan the web and dump new lyrics here (although he does not do that constantly, once or twice a year, I think), Janitor mostly cleans up the Orphaned pages and put them onto Other Songs lists and fixes minor formatting things, but teknomunk programs it to do other clean-up jobs, as well (hence the name of the bot). BotUm is new and is currently helping Aquatiki to change slanted apostrophes to the usual wiki-styled straight apostrophes. If you have a site-wide change that you think should be made, you could always ask about it in the Community Portal. Most (if not all) of us admins have that page on our watchlist, so your suggestion can be discussed and if it's agreed on, then one of the three (likely teknomunk) can send the bot out to do the dirty work.

Any admin, however, can use the site's Batch Move application to move an entire Artist's page and albums and songs to a new location when the Artist's name is incorrect. (If there's not already items there, of course.) Usually this has to do with incorrect capitalization or a character fix (Blue Oyster Cult vs. Blue Öyster Cult, for instance), or as in the case with TAW vs. AW, where there should be a "The" added or removed. In this case, both listings overlapped quite a bit, so it required a more manual method of moving and redirecting.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   12:35, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] The Beach Boys

Hello again! I saw your move note on the "Beach Boys" page and thought I'd reply about the situation there. Most of those pages likely exist under "The Beach Boys" and need to be redirected. Unfortunately, that's a manual job, tedious and cumbersome. Help Me Rhonda, indeed!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   13:17, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Jethro Tull

Is there a method to your madness of erasing most of the track lists for this artist? They should be listed.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   12:43, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

Thank you for returning those! I was getting nervous!  :-] I'm also going to go ahead and restore the links to the instrumentals, as those should have links, too. (We put the {{Instrumental}} template where the lyrics would go to mark the song as an instrumental.)    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   08:57, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Jethro Tull

My apologies for the madness! However, I didn't knowingly delete any instrumentals. not quite thick as a brick! --EchoSierra 15:11, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

You didn't delete the pages, but the links to those pages went black. (Maybe you were more in a Stones mood that day?) :-]
Here are the changes that you made on the 12th, in case I'm still being unclear. (It's a bit late.) No biggie. It's all good! :-] Happy editing!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   01:20, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Jethro Tull

I am guilty of rolling & tumbling like a greased brick :] cheers --EchoSierra 07:26, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Image Trouble

Are you have trouble uploading an image? Can you describe in detail what happened? --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 09:25, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Image uploads were failing with "0 byte returned" error. All works fine now. Thanks! -- EchoSierra 17:07, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, I saw that too. P.S. I changed your "talk" to reflect normal conversation style for a wiki. I hope you don't mind. --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 17:14, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Nice work...

...on J.J. Cale. (As usual!) Feel free to remove the Other Songs header whenever you empty the list. (It feels good!) If another song comes around, the Janitor bot will recreate the header when it places a new song on the page. So where are you going next...? :-]    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   22:38, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Strange Song Template Behaviour

From any artist page click a red linked song, the resulting template doesn't have the relevant details from the artist and song title filled.... what happened? EchoSierra 19:20, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

Everything appears okay (sort of). If you preview the page, everything is as it should be. The auto-form used to plug the correct info into the editor's box, but isn't currently. Everything works out okay in the long run, however. I'll pass on the info, though. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:59, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Viva la Janitah!

Good to see the Janitor back in action :) EchoSierra 03:53, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, EchoSierra,

I'm glad too, but this return exposed one interesting side-effect of artist pages sectioning.

I noticed this trying to clean up John Lee Hooker OS list (BTW, you've done nice and titanic job there, thanks!).

One of rows bot added to this list was an album, not a song. Album name was correctly formatted, and initially I couldn't understand what was the reason of such strange album appearance in OS. Then I thought that it may be the result of artist page sectioning - bot treats all artist page sections subelements as songs. But then we should have the same 'missunderstanding', using any batch process, not excepting API! So, I tried to make a test search using API, and unfortunatelly, search results confirmed my assumption - response contained only list of albums instead of songs.

So, I think we should reconsider our policy of using this technique (splitting artist page into sections).

Regards, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 11:39, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi Senvaikis

Thanks for the kind words about JLH pages.

The side effect of sectioning large pages was mentioned earlier by Fuzy, though I just saw that post today.

Does this mean that all songs of an artist must have an entry on the artist page?

Can the function/bot be modified to return the contents of the artist directory minus the albums, without any reliance on availability of songs from the artist page?

Not sure how big a problem extra large pages are for users editing them, or for lyricwiki itself. When lyricwiki is wonky I usually edit large pages by adding new albums below the preceding album, instead of opening the entire page for edit.

While on the subject of large pages, are there any numbers available or easily get()able on artists with the largest collection of songs/red-linked songs etc.?

cheers -- EchoSierra 15:04, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Ok, So I concatanated the contents of the four John Lee Hooker pages, it came to 149KB, when trying to save, lyricwiki chokes, and the page remains unsaved :(

(minutes later) and on 2nd try lyricwiki graciously saved the page John Test Hooker

--EchoSierra 21:25, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi, Sierra. I don't think we should rush making any changes, removing all page splittings; imo first of all this problem should be discussed with admins (Sean, Teknomunk, Kingnee...).

They'd decide what should be done - tighten policy of artist page formatting or change all batch processes to manage page splitting. --Senvaikis ^(talk) 01:30, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Btw, JLH page contains several mismaches in dates/tracking of some releases. You can check that visiting JLH discography page, compiled by Thomas Jarlvik. To make this task easier I've made Excell sheet for you, based on info provided by Thomas Jarlvik. If for some reason you don't use Excell - here is html. Good luck, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 04:58, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi

John Test Hooker was just a test, and I marked it for deletion, I was curious if Safari chokes on large page edits, (it doesn't). As for date mismatches on John Lee Hooker pages, I was in the middle of re moving the albums to the year of original release, and this I will continue with on the original sectioned pages, see the discussion page at John Lee Hooker, hopefully after the page sectioning is further clarified.

Thanks for the xls and the html pages, opens fine in Numbers. Now if only a more complete source of his lyrics could be found...and apologies on rocking the boat with the test page

cheers

--EchoSierra 12:18, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] It Isn't a New Car, But... (Who can afford gas anyhow?)

Thanks for all you do and the diligence with which you do it!

P.S. If you ever want to give a LyricWiki award to anyone, the list is currently at LyricWiki:User Awards.

P.P.S. Sorry, but I don't know about the HelpMe below.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   20:03, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Tip of the hat to everybody who makes lw a better place every day.

EchoSierra 02:41, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] API: postSong(), Refering to Compilations

Hi

I'm trying to post a song using the API.. test post Why doesn't it work? Anyone? I looked at the documentation, but there is no postSong example.

What is the proper method of refering to compilations? see B.B. King:Street Life & Royal Jam (1982)

TIA --EchoSierra 16:25, 22 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] 2 Things

You will have to ask User:Sean Colombo about that. There is not a whole lot of documentation for our API. Also, I have been going through your deletion requests for J. J. Cale songs. So far, all of those have been good Redirect candidates, as opposed to deletion. I'll take care of it, so this is just for next time you might need that info. So if you have any questions (other than API, that stuff is black magic to me) leave a message on my talk page
King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 19:22, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Kingnee. I'll be careful about redirect vs. deletion from now on; every one of my deletion requests need be rediredted.

I'll see if I can get any help from our friends in high places about the API.

EchoSierra 02:41, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Nice hustle!

I'm not Redxx, so I don't have any fancy award template to give out, but solid work on Waterboys. That was a lot of work! Thanks for sticking with it.--Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 00:57, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks Aquatiki, see above note from Kingnee. I started deletion requests and you set me straight mid flight. Can't wait to see the Janitor's reaction.

EchoSierra 02:41, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Strangeness with redirects

I redirected everything from Manhattan Transfer to The Manhattan Transfer Janitor failed to add the redirected songs to the OS section in TMT, or MT. Did I do something wrong? Another related item: When a lyric page is redirected, the redirect is not indicated in the history? TIA EchoSierra 01:17, 14 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Heard about Page Ranking?

Hey dude, how's it going? I started this discussion and I was wonder what you thought. It might change the site somewhat, so I'm real interested in getting a lot of input. Can you spare a sec? --Aquatiki - T - E 07:12, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Thanks

I like the standard of your work so I'm glad to work together with you! Thanks for your input on Jeff's page. Although I haven't heard his jazz stuff, I got his earlier albums. I saw him play in London back in the eighties. I was very sad and shocked to hear of his death. Tragic loss.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 05:08, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, Jeff's passing was sad indeed. Working on his pages brought up a couple of points that are not quite clear to me

1. For the sake of having all his work in one place everything is under "The Jeff Healey Band" artist page, but in some song footers I've changed the artist to "Jeff Healey", to make sure amazon link works, is this discrepency ok?
2. When there are two (or more) versions of a track from multiple albums (Bugle Call Rag), how is one supposed to make proper audio links? on seperate pages or multiple links on one song page? TIA EchoSierra 15:44, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Compilations

I think the only thing we gotta watch out for is that we don't list compilations unnecessarily, since it presents problems when pages become tooooo big. Besides which most compilations are usually made up of songs from earlier albums. As such, if we've got all of them, there shouldn't be any need to detail 'Greatest Hits' compilations. All roads lead to one in any event ;) Because of the problems it causes when pages become over inflated I tend to omit compilations completely, unless there are songs in OS list that can't be allocated to any albums on artist page. (As looks to be the case with some of the compilations you detailed so thanks!)  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 18:48, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks, I agree on every point you made. Feel free to remove redundant compilations. Sometimes I just do it for completeness of the discography rather any other practical purpose. As far as pages getting looooong... please have a look at John Lee Hooker, I want to get back to working on that! EchoSierra 19:50, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Rfl..and this is my ongoing project >>> Frank Sinatra. When I started that page there was a few compilations and over 700 songs in the OS list. Yeah, I know..I reckon we must both be mad ;)  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 20:17, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Sooooo, what is the criterion for not listing an albums' tracks on the artist page? When the page is over 32kb? We should document this somewhere --Aquatiki - T - E 12:35, 9 August 2008 (EDT) am I starting to sound like Senv or what? --Aquatiki - T - E 12:35, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

First of all it would be very useful to hear at least one detailed argumentation against 32 KB boundary exceeding, and if we'll see that it's so inadmissible indeed, I'd like to ask you once more - please discuss this issue with Sean, before making any changes in documentation. I'm sure that such strict page size limiting may be made only after making some changes in API. As I've already mentioned on repeated occasions, all songs, not included in the artist page, are invisible for API function getArtist(). So, if we'll split all extrasized pages into several 'subpages', API search result may be almost empty. I know how it sounds for you, but thanks for reminding. And please, close html tags, this time I made it for you ;) --Senvaikis ^(talk) 16:15, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Whoa, whoa! Sorry if I offended! The technical reasons for 32kb limits at listed on Wikipedia:Article_size#Technical_issues. I didn't know that about the API (but I don't know anything about the API). I haven't made any changes to documentation, nor do I plan to. I've just seen some pages (Pink Floyd) where they list albums, but not tracks. I was just trying to figure out when that's OK. Sorry if I stepped on any toes. --Aquatiki - T - E 16:25, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Please, relax, Aq, you haven't stepped on any toes :) Just I wouldn't like to see how the most known artists (they have the biggest pages, as a rule) are being excluded from API search, intensively used by multiple applications, add-ins, plug-ins etc.--Senvaikis ^(talk) 16:53, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks, Sen, I'm glad I wasn't involuntarily pissing people off! Who can we let know about this policy mismatch? Given the rise of mobile computing (iPhones and cellphones) I think we should keep the 32kb limit like Wikipedia. As such, it seems logical to modify the API to search for the song page directly if not found on the artist page. Assuming that seems right to anyone else, who can we tell about this? --Aquatiki - T - E 17:50, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

If all songs not included in the artist page are invisible for API function getArtist and are being excluded from API search, then this is a big problem I agree. Particularly since the most reknowned artists are, as Senv rightly says, the ones likely to have the biggest pages and therefore the artists for whom sub pages have been created. However the tracklistings are on artist pages. The only real difference is they are sub-pages. Maybe there is a solution in this...somewhere.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 18:19, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

I have an advocacy page about subpages. --Aquatiki - T - E 18:32, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Could you just explain this bit for me please Aqua: "None of our existing systems could not be adapted to this new format" Thanks Aqua.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 19:31, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

fixed. --Aquatiki - T - E 20:53, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Not to sound like a broken record (music joke!), but has any of this (these API issues) been brought up to Sean? Can this be solved on his end to include those pages in the search, or what?    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   20:45, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Display Capitalization

I saw on the Leadbelly and Steve Earle page that you had added some capitalization to the display portion of links. I just wanted to let you know that this isn't necessary for the pagenaming policy. Some people get more than a little upset about our pagename policy that every word has an initial capital, no matter what country the Artist is from or what capitalization the Artist chooses. The post-| portion of the links allow these various capitalization schemes to be displayed so that those viewing the page aren't put off by the pagename caps. So, if you see uncapped display sections, it's okay. That's likely as it should be! (As a P.S.: Personally, I don't usually change things the other way from capped to uncapped either. Bigger fish to fry, and the caps don't offend my personal sensibilities.  :-] )    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   11:41, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

I was just trying to make sure that all page links are properly capped, the display portion was just collateral damage... I only get offended when file extensions are word capped! Cheers EchoSierra 14:19, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Adminship

Several of the admins have noticed your hard (and more importantly, consistent) work, and think that you would be up to the job of being an administrator. Are you interested?
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌,A) 00:14, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

Yes I am interested, and honoured. cheers EchoSierra 11:33, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for accepting.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌,A) 12:48, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

Many Congratulations Echo! Great to have you on board!  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 04:58, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Well, I don't have much more to add. Congratulations! --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 05:39, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Welcome to the family! Teknomunk did inform you that, as the newbie, you are in charge of cleaning up the admin washroom, right? I know poor Redxx will be glad to no longer have that job.  :-]    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   12:03, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Too right ;)  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 16:33, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks all for the encouragements, and since all guilty parties are present let me start with some tough questions: Where is the cache of TP for the admin washroom? Who has the latest edition of Da Big Book of Adminship? and how come there's no phonograph in the admin lounge? (I ain't got no fancy cassettes yet!) cheers EchoSierra 17:02, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

You may not be aware of this, but we sophisticated admins use an 8-Track, the latest and greatest technology. Try to buck you ideas: you'll make us look bad! And as for that crude invention of wax paper for you arse, please try to be civilized like the rest of us and use water in the form of a bidet. And as for the Good Book, we only carry in the original Sanskrit, which should be no problem for you, right? --Aquatiki - T - E 18:38, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Hey, congratulations on the promotion. Just don't let the power go to your head!

King_Nee1114 (talk page • contributions • deletions) 20:22, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

My Head? EchoSierra 20:32, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Hey guys, no fighting in EchoSierra's head. --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 03:54, 28 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Deletions

I noticed on the Recent Changes page that you had deleted a bunch of "Yardbirds" pages, which is okay, but unfortunately if UberBot gets unleashed again to go scraping for new lyrics pages, he's liable to discover those "Yardbirds" lyrics again, and bring them right back to the site. To avoid this, what we do is redirect the page. This way, when UberBot checks to see if we have the lyrics, he'll think that we do, because the page exists. (He doesn't check to see if it's a redirect.) The only pages we really delete are ones with horribly mis-formed pagenames, vandalism, or the like. (LyricWiki:Deletion lists the guidelines/criteria.)

As an added point - you are an editing animal! No joke - I think half of the Recent Changes page are your edits. I love it when my watch list has a sprinkling of EchoSierra edits! Keep up the good work!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   12:12, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

Dang! I thought redirectin at the top (artist) level would take care of things, but didn't know UberBot needs them too. On top of that, I thoughts UberBot would only be sent out looking for red linked lyrics... Any chance UberBot can be modified to consider top level redirections, before the next sweep? I'll stop deleting redirect pages, It doesn't end at The Yardbirds! Thanks for the note. cheers EchoSierra 12:32, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

I think there is the possibility of UberBot only searching for songs that we have red links for (not just that we don't have the lyrics). That would be the most immediately helpful, anyway. As for UberBot considering top level redirections, here's the counter-argument for that: there's always the possibility that a song that we need exists out "there" that is only listed under "Yardbirds" and not "The Yardbirds". By limiting Uberbot, that one won't get gathered. I know that it's all a matter of how wide we want the sweep to be. The wider the sweep, the more info that can be gathered. The wider the sweep, the more junk that will be gathered as well, however. Keep rockin', though!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:12, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Re: Neil Young

Technically bootlegs (except for rare instances) shouldn't even be listed.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   11:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

As the man says technically bootlegs shouldn't even be listed. However what I would say is that it is clear you have worked very hard on the Neil_Young/Bootleg_Albums page. As such I think it should remain. All I'm wondering is whether there was in fact any need to list all these bootleg albums. By which I mean that although I haven't checked any of the songs, I don't imagine that there are that many songs that Neil hasn't released officially. As such many (or most) of these songs will already be listed on their respective albums on his main artist page. As indeed they should be. And like I think I said to you up there ^^, with regards to compilations, all roads lead to one in any event.

So whilst I admire your commitment, and you indeed do an excellent job of any page you work on, you've got to remember that LyricWiki doesn't aim to provide complete discographies. We leave that to the likes of sites such as AllMusic, etc. We are aiming to fulfill a completely different role, something which those sites don't do, which is of course to provide lyrics.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 12:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Also....

[edit] Album Art

I happened to notice on the Neil Young pages and on Les Cowboys Fringants that you don't apply album art correctly.

Keifer has got his thing with Caps and this, my friend, is one of my little annoyances. Since I come across this all the time, I have today decided to move the Help instructions appertaining to this up the Help page a bit to see if that makes any difference. I would however be very grateful if you would correct these from now on whenever you see them.

Anyway, I'll take care of the Cowboys, but I was thinking you might want to have a 'shot' (hee hee) at correcting this on Neil Young and some of your other "watched" pages.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 12:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Striking the iron, or 'broken record'

Hi, Sierra,

first of all - belated congrats on becaming an admin; and thanks for your kind offer of admin help. Striking the iron while it's hot, I hasten to take the opportunity to ask you for more serious help than undoing my last mistakes - at worst I can do it myself manually. You are maybe the last active admin, not yet being asked to delegate one problem to The One Who May Solve it - Sean. You surely know already what I'm talking about, but I'll repeat the short description of my 'broken record', with no additional comments:

API f-n getArtist fails to give all artists songs, when

• large artist page is splitted into subpages or contains only links to albums (The Beach Boys, Frank Sinatra...)
• HTML formatting tags are used in songlist (David Bowie...)
• templates, such as list album, are used for artist page compilation from album pages (Les Cowboys Fringants...)

Thanks, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 07:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. BTW, your statment that using list album template gives us more compact page is questionable - just load the page to ensure it still weights >61 KB. Yes, it's more compact... editing, but not loading.

Hey Senvaikis,

The special getArtist() problems occur when we've deviated from the standards which it sounds like we've done in at least 3 different ways. Since we have a bunch of other stuff we're swamped with, I think the best way to solve this is to open-source some of the API as soon as I can & have some set of tests we can run to make sure that each change increases the number of pages we can parse without breaking pages that previously worked.

I have a special to-do list where everything on there is going to get done front-to-back until the whole thing is finished. I've put this task on there.

Thanks,

-Sean Colombo (talk|contribs) 22:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Now as you guys know (particularly Senv) I haven't got a clue about this API thingy. However seeing as you are both now aware of the template I found, could you tell me if what I told Pathoschild is correct >>> (post) Also, is there a possibility that this API thingy might get sorted and then such a template could in fact be used?  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 17:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Red. Your post is correct... almost, because I've never said that using tl list album (btw, - nice imho) for compilating artist page from albums or using subpages are inadmissible implicitly. What I've told is that that's inadmissible without changing API, e.g. we have to choice - tighten page formatting rules to meet requirements of current API, or train up API to read such pages properly. You surely know my opinion, but for those who don't, I'll repeat - radical reconstruction of API is inevitable. I'm glad that some light in the end of this tunnel has appeared (thanks, Sierra) :) Regards, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 20:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

OK thanks Senv, understood. API or not, some things are unavoidable. However, until such a decision is made, regrettably that template cannot be used :(  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 19:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kristofferson - Wow!

There I was mildly concentrating on KK's first album for a day or so, knowing that I should have finished organizing the main page and dreading the mountain of work that remained on that main page only to come back to the main page just now and see that all the work has been done. Thank you!

Are you going to continue with this? If so, let me know what you want to do, what you don't want to do, what you want me to do and what you do not want me to do.

Are you going to watch the page or should I watch the page or both? Would you at least watch the page to do the redirects that will be necessary for songs with bad titles?

Thank you for all the work you did on this page. JimCubb 17:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay! Does it make sense to you for me to clean up the outward appearance of the main page first? What I mean is eliminate all the red links by adding missing lyrics, creating album pages and uploading cover art. Then I can attack the problem of the Song Footer on every song.

I suppose I should be the Watcher. However, the possibility of the damage a dedicated hater of Country Music or KK could do in a very short time is somewhat overwhelming.

Thank you again.

JimCubb 18:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I found the 93 KK songs on the list of orphaned songs. Shouldn't they already be on the KK page under Other Songs? The Song Template and the Song Footer both identify him as the artist. For example, Aguila Del Norte is missing some pieces of the Song Footer but the artist is not one of them. What am I not seeing?

JimCubb 18:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

How can I put them on Other Songs if I need to do so other than reverting what you did? Some of them need redirecting and some of them belong on the page put need to find their album homes. Then there are the ones that have problems that I cannot identify. When I typed Aguila Del Norte it came up as a red link but when I copied the title from the song's page and pasted it between the brackets the link was blue. JimCubb 19:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the number of orphaned songs has dropped from 93 to 53 you most certainly are adding albums. I think I should get as far out of your way as possible.

May I create the oldest album that does not yet exist, Jesus Was A Capricorn, and do all the things that should be done when creating it? I can open yet another window with the new album, open the main page for editing to copy all the album information that is there, back out of th main page an go to work on the album. This would be a good time to complete the footers on the songs as well. By the time that is done, I intend to be very thorough, you should be finished. JimCubb 20:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry. What I meant was create a page for the oldest album that does not have one. I am working on that now.

Oh, my! All the album with all their songs, no orphaned songs, redirects for all the songs whose titles are incorrect -- I think you have significantly reversed entropy.

JimCubb 20:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bot Speed

Hey ES, you're running pywikipedia, right? I think you might wanna consider slowing your bot down, a bit. With BotUm going on all the _'s, and all the other bots flying around too, I use -sleep:1 and -pt:10. I'm actually thinking of going up to 2 & 20. I just wanna be sure and not overload the server. Thoughts? --Aquatiki - T - E 02:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

done! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏)02:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language Unknown

Thank you for creating yet another category for songs that lack language information. It is much less daunting than the other two.

Okay, 31 Minutos is a Chilean Rock Group and its songs are in Spanish except one that is in English, 33 is a Panamanian Rock Band and all its songs are in Spanish and Acda En De Munnik is a Dutch Lounge Act and all its songs are in Dutch.

I have fixed all the 31 Minutos and 33 songs. I have fixed all the 31 Minutos and 33 songs. I have done a few of the Acda En De Munnik but it is getting late and I am getting tired of cleaning up secondary messes. Would you be so kind as to go back to your wonderful new category, to the Acda En De Munnik songs at replace "language = Unknown" with "language = Dutch"?

Thank you for all the work you do here.

JimCubb 05:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

done. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏)06:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Good news! Very Good news! Your new category actually appears on the Category:Language page and can be found without a back door. If I get the time later today I will look at the songs there and make some educated guesses. The titles of the first of the groups that are now on the page looks like Polish to me. When I return in a few hours I will Google the group and see where it is based.

I still think it would help the effort if a bot could label any song with " the " in it as being English. The number of false negatives may be large but the number of false positives should be miniscule.

Has anyone figured out how the 100,000+ song category was formed or is being populated? None of the songs that I there that I looked at has a \ after language yet that is what the Category says is there.

JimCubb 16:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

My idea of the Unknown Language Category was so that after whittling down the huge number of English songs that are not labeled as being English, we will end up with songs that do need actual Mark I eyeballs to verify their language. I will try the " the " search for English language songs. I'd love to know how Categories are generated too. If you can identify the language associated with Artists in Language Unknown, I will process each artist with S2E2, instead of a manual job, leave me a note here when you feeel like it :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 17:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Echo have a look at the first post on Aqua's talk page re Jim's idea of looking for " the "'s, as Aqua considers that if something like this is to be done, it should be done in a slighly different way.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 00:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I don't know if I misunderstood your comment, but mostly all categories are generated by the use of, or what is inserted in, templates, i.e. on each template page there is usually a category.

Thank you Red for pointing that out again, my penny finally dropped (BANG)! :-) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏)14:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

First, regarding Aqua's thought, that possibility was why I wanted the method to be checked on songs that had already been identified as in a language other than English. As a "first pass", search for the Unicode for the Japanese possessive suffix that is pronounced "no"; as a "second pass" search for the equivalent suffix in Korean, pronounced "e" but with a unique stream of three Unicode characters.

Then, in the final pass search for characters in the Cyrillic alphabet, I know nothing about those languages other than there are quite a few of them and there are distinctions between them. If that section of Unicode is represented, skip the song. Otherwise, search for " the " and if it is found mark the song as being in English. Is that better?

Now for the P.S -- When I was doing all the KK songs by hand, some of them had no line for language, some of them had a blank after "language = ", with or without either space, and a small number of them had "language = English", with or without either space. When I ran into one of the last group I found that the Category listing at the bottom would change if I also changed something else on the page.

I have yet to find a song with "language = \" so I do wonder how that category has been populated.

Now, work for your bot to do. All the 12012 songs are in Japanese. All the 5566 songs are in Chinese. All the Abel songs are in Swiss German (a sub page of German; two words, both capitalized with only a space between them). All the songs by Adriano Celentano are in Italian. The list gets smaller.

JimCubb 22:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The language reckoning sounds great, and as for instrumentals, it can be deduced from the approp template. Where did you find that "language = \" category? S2E2 was acting weird... BAD BAD BOT! ;) Thank you very much for figuring out those artists, I will get them tagged later. Yes the categories seem to be hooked to various params, and the category name will be derived from whatever value was inserted for the parameter. I am waiting for Elvish Preseley to show up as a language category one of these days, and I'm gonna cut it into little pieces!. happy editing -cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 00:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC) who still can't figure out which is the approp place to respond to Talk, my talk page or the other party's?

The "language = \" category was the category that Redxx was looking at when I was looking and SNLI when she was saying there were fewer than 150,000 songs with language problems and I was saying that there were almost 600,000 such songs.

I have opened the Talk page for Category Language unknown in the hope that everyone involved will meet there. This is only a work-around to your dilemma but it is a valid and effective one I think.

JimCubb 00:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bot Portal

LyricWiki:Bot_Portal  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 21:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Just wanted to say

..thanks for your vigilance with the visitor to this page OneRepublic:Apologize. They also attempted to throw me off my stride by deleting Humbug's chess moves on my User page too. Now vandalising one of my Gold pages is one thing, but my chess game? Noooo... _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 22:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Personally I think he got off very lightly with a one week ban.

[edit] More Work For Your Bot

All of the songs by 17 Hippies, an acoustic group from Berlin, are in German. Plain, white-bread German this time. All the songs by 883 are in Italian. Those two and the ones I gave you before should keep your bot busy after you have convinced it to behave. JimCubb 04:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Done, all the artists you indicated so far. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 18:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I have put more and will put all that I find from here on out or the Language/Unknown Talk Page, okay? JimCubb 22:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

How about on Language Unknown page? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏)23:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

That is what I meant. This time last week is was already Friday. Sorry.JimCubb 23:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You mentioned somewhere that your bot could handle redirects in large numbers. Can you sidetrack it long enought to take care of the two Faithfull Marianne candidates that are listed on my Talk Page? Thanx.

JimCubb 06:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lyrics tags in Instrumental songs

Hi, Sierra,

Seems to me your bot and my LwUtil have came into conflict :).
LwUtil was learned to remove <lyrics*></lyrics*> tags if it founds that song is instrumental. Now I noticed that S2E2 is instructed to reverse such changes (compare this and this).

So, we should determine if lyrics tags, surrounding {{Instrumental}}, are required or not.
If for some reasons they should be left, let me know, and I'll 'reinstruct' LwUtils' :).
Cheers, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 07:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO instrumental pages should contain

 <lyrics>{{Instrumental}}</lyrics>

Mischko 08:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm ready to accept any decision, based on IMichkoO as well as on ISeanO, just thought that either should be motivated somehow :)--Senvaikis ^(talk) 10:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

This topic has come up before, and while neither was ever made "official" (much like "lyric" vs. "lyrics" tags), the inclusion of the tags on the instrumental pages was seen as possibly helpful. If not now, then in the future. (I can imagine the database being implemented by being searched for what was between the lyrics tags, for example.) Plus, it does have a more "finished" look, I think.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   11:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

No sooner said than done (redone). Thx, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 19:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, Thank you Senv for bringing this up, and Sean & Mischko for clarifying. <lyric*></lyric*> tag is required in every lyric page even for Instrumentals. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 01:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RRRRrrrggg - SPAMMERS!

Good job catching the new rash of evil-doers! Smack them and smack them hard! Grrrrrr.

If you could, however, please add a {{BlockUser}} note on their talk page. I normally add something like what is on User talk:212.118.158.68. That will help me to know if the User has already been blocked, plus it will let any possible innocent who might ahve that IP address know why they can't edit any pages. Thanks!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   02:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's like the cop sitcoms on teevee ...The paper work is always far behind the leg work. I'll take care of the Usertalk pages of the spamming IPs missing the {{BlockUser}} flag. Meanwhile, you did notice almost all pointed to a certain server (or two)... you get my drift ;) it was a fun battle! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏)03:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I just did some WHOIS searches, and the IPs of those you put notes on today are all over the place: China, Taiwan, France, Moldova, South Africa, etc. So, that's actually weird if they were all spamming the site with the same basic stuff. I noticed that at least in one instance, the IP address did sort of a test run on a page. No spam, just a little slightly random note on a talk page. I tend to watch pages that get little "nice site" notes.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   17:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Correct, the machines that are doing the actual spamming on behalf of Mr. Smith are mere zombies spread across the Matrix. My point was the actual addresses being left on spammed pages (themselves are likely hijacked unbeknown to their owners: ("reup*.com", "webdesi*.com")) eventually leads to (www.ia-sc*.com) which installed a goodie on my machine (IAInstall.exe, first line of it's content reads: "cannot be run in DOS mode" LOL) Whois ia-sc and it may lead to Mr. Smith and his ISP ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 02:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Gotcha.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   02:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language of songs having instrumental parts

To be short - just look at history of Pink Floyd:Yet Another Movie :). Cheers,--Senvaikis ^(talk) 10:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My Bad, Senv, that was me not the bot ;) peek at the bot portal for my real query ;) cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 03:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Another voice here. What about Blues and Jazz songs that will have real words but will have instrumental breaks that are at least one verse long each? I am thinking specifically of the last two tracks of the Wille Nelson and Wynton Marsalis album Two Men With The Blues (Yes, I know it is red. I will get to it by the end of the year.)

Track 9, Ain't Nobody's Business, has seven 20 second verses, an instrumental intro, instrumentals between the verses and an instrumental conclusion, for a total of 7 minutes, 27 seconds. I don't think it would be right to call it an instrumental even though the verses do not carry a theme.

Track 10 That's All by Merle Travis has five, 22 second verses loosely connected by a theme, again separated by instrumentals. The second trumpet break comes after the guitar break and consists of a single note held for 22 seconds followed, with the same breath by a 4 second cadenza. I still would not like to call it an instrumental.

What say you?

JimCubb 22:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Category:Language/Instrumental I don't know if that exactly answers your question Jim but it might help.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 23:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Would you change your mind if you knew that Wynton Marsalis sings two of the the verses on Ain't Nobody's Business? (Wynton Sings!) I think I will put all the songs into Category:Language/English with the advisory on the talk page that anyone who thinks it should be an instrumental needs to change the songs on a ton of albums of this type and provide examples. JimCubb 00:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Jim if there is actual singing (consisting of more than a couple of words) then it shouldn't be marked as instrumental. Long instrumental breaks don't make any difference.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 00:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes Red stole them words out of my mouth, If the lady sings, it's not an instrumental! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 03:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I thought I was clear that there were verses to the songs but perhaps not. I hope to have the time to be very explicit about the nature of the songs, something along the lines of timed lyrics. It is really a charming album. Nothing terribly profound, just good music very well done.

Okay, back to our old friend. Do we have a professor of Slavic Languages in the membership? JimCubb 05:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Strange 'autogen. song page (WLv0.12.9)'

Could you please take a look here? Don't know what to do with that :). Thanks, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 10:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Done, I'll keep an eye on them Autogen songs! (much simpler than rhyming regex ;) cheers ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) EchoSierra 10:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep... but you was told ;). Thanks, --Senvaikis ^(talk) 10:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Right move - block him. He's been warned before about using old script by both Aqua and Kiefer.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 11:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Illegal Character in SNLI

Check this page: [[1]] and click next 200, there is an error about an illegal character, then you go back about 4 pages, and you can't get past the above page at all. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 11:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes weird. You can't get past page by clicking next but you can get past page by using index.  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 11:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no clue how!! the index at top of pages goes only to Z, and we are past Z at that point! do tell! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 11:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

duh, Prefindex! but I want to to traverse SNLI to make it to the east asian songs... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 11:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

fixed LOL now you can get past that page! ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 11:45, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Well done! Me thinks it would be good to know what exactly was causing the problem and how you fixed this (in case it comes back to haunt us at some point) _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 15:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I set the language param starting with the songs at the end of that page forward and tada (Russian) ! That's all I did... ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 11:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Language/

I take it you haven't forgotten this category? (594 songs)  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 11:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

As if! ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 11:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Rfl..just checking ;) ..Do you want me to find out how to resolve that bugg..y page?  _♫Яєd_{xx ♪}♫♪_♫♪^Talk 12:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You certainly may, But it's not in my way, bot automatically skips bad page names, I learned. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 12:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bet that felt good ;)

Thanks Red. SNLI leaves me no time :) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ (☏) 21:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NC

I'm subscribing completely to Red's appreciation of your operatibility, diligence and competence. But now I'm going to snatch another, also ES-specific your feature - goodwill ;) and ask for one more favour. Talking about Nick Cave. Being so multi-faced, or multi-paged, NC became almost impossible to manag